00:00

Speaker 1

Hi, welcome to this week's episode of Shaman Talk. My name is Rhonda and I'm your host. And this week I am delighted to invite Eve back to the show. Eve is my oldest daughter and it's been a couple of years since the last time we had the conversation on Shaman Talk, so thanks for coming back. Yeah, no worries. Eve's quite nervous and keeps having we laugh. In fact, it's taken us 20 minutes to get this podcast started, but here we are. We're going to do the best we can and despite the hilarity, we're going to work through some quite difficult themes. We're going to talk about narcissism in our relationship and how that affected you as a child and as an adult.

00:48

Speaker 1

And we're going to talk about our differing spiritualities and how we merge our household and what that looks like, because I think people might find that interesting, especially as one of the center for shamanism's main objectives and main values is to be inclusive to all who want to practice shamanism, regardless of what they want to do with it, what they want to merge it with, how they wish to express it in their life. So I think that'll be quite interesting as well to share. So let's start with how the first question, maybe you can talk a little bit about your mental health growing up, which wasn't great. We struggled with that, didn't we?

01:32

Speaker 1

I remember that time that we eventually got you into cams and they just stuck you in a room with a book to do CBT when that was the last thing you needed, which was really bad. So you had some struggles there, your schooling issues, and then also your drug use for coping with, I think, the lack of parental attention and emotional maturity and support that you just didn't get from me. And you certainly didn't get it from your biological dad either. So maybe do you want to share some about that? And that will give us a foundation for the rest of our conversation.

02:03

Speaker 2

Yeah. So it was really tough growing up. I think, like you said, there was a lack of parental support. There was a lot of ups and downs as well. Sometimes things would be like the best of the best, and sometimes it was just like really disconnected. So due to that, I struggled with depression, quite severe depression and severe anxiety as well. It made getting through high school really difficult for me. And I ended up leaving really early and trying to follow different paths that weren't really suited for me.

02:46

Speaker 1

But like what? Give us an example.

02:49

Speaker 2

Just like hairdressing and general hospitality, work and those things just for someone in the state that I was in mentally, those just weren't really good paths for me to go down. And yeah, one of my biggest coping mechanisms was drugs and alcohol, marijuana being the main one. And I think now that I'm out of that self destructive spiral, I realized that I was using that to dissociate from all the really difficult things that I was having to go through.

03:31

Speaker 1

Yeah. So then narcissism is a theme that runs through our family. I've talked about this on the podcast before. So for me, growing up, my experience of parental support was also really lacking. I had a narcissistic father and a people pleasing mother, and there was no emotional maturity, there was no support, there was very authoritarian, aggressive, angry parent. And it was just a big mess, basically, which I've talked about at length. So I won't go into here. But what that left me with was no sense of self and an inability to connect meaningfully with my life or with anybody in my life. And it made me very selfish and it made me very self absorbed. And I think that sort of behavior can often start in trauma.

04:30

Speaker 1

But then at some point you have to say, well, are we going to live like this forever? But that's later in the story. So for you, being born when I was only 21, was in a very unhappy relationship with, also with another narcissist. And we're not talking about handle. Well, we can if you want, actually, but I didn't ask you before the podcast. So we're talking about me and you and our relationship. But for me, what that meant was that I was unable to give you any real intimacy, connection, support, boundaries. I didn't know how to handle you or your tantrum. I mean, you very rarely tantrum. You were like a unicorn baby. I must say, I was really lucky. I think that if you'd been a difficult child, I would have struggled way more than I did. But you weren't, thankfully.

05:27

Speaker 1

I feel like the gods were looking out for me in some sense, that you were just a brilliant, such a lovely, well natured, kind, little fairy pixie baby. You were just amazing. And I missed most of that because I was not able to be available to you as a mother, really. And it's interesting, we've had this conversation in later years, right? And you were like, I don't really see it as badly as I do. Right, you'd said that, but still, I'm like, no, it was pretty bad. But I'm interested in how do you think growing up with me. I'll just give some examples of the types of things and you can maybe fill in some examples if you've got any. Right. But I would be not clear on what was okay and what wasn't okay.

06:22

Speaker 1

And I would take my mood sight on you, and I wasn't able to keep my feelings to myself about things. And I would be really volatile sometimes, and violent verbally, emotionally, and occasionally physically as well. I had no sense of self and no way to hold space for me, so I definitely wasn't able to hold space for you. So I'm wondering, how was that for you growing up? Because we also lived in a community set in, which I think is important to mention. So when you were really young, were alone, right. Me and you were alone until you were about five. And then we moved in with the rest of the family. But we just entered this bigger narcissistic system, didn't we?

07:09

Speaker 2

Yeah, for sure. I think that it was really challenging, the sort of inconsistency that came along with what you're saying is your lack of sense of self and the lack of clear boundaries. I was confused a lot of the time, didn't really know right from wrong, really, for lack of better words. And then on top of that, because everybody, because there was so many of us, I think that added to that confusion as a child, because everybody had different rules and everybody had things that were okay and things that weren't okay way. And then on occasion, everyone's issues that they had with each other would, like, spill on to me and they would come to me with it, which as a child, I don't think that's really a burden that any child should have to bear.

08:12

Speaker 1

It's called parentification, when an adult expects you to take on their problems and help them solve their problems, basically, yeah.

08:20

Speaker 2

So I think one of my biggest challenges wasn't just that I had one person with narcissistic traits to deal with. I had, like, a whole bunch, which is quite interesting, all with their own sets of rules and view of the world and parent in. So, yeah, think it affected me quite deeply at the time.

08:46

Speaker 1

And still now I would say, oh.

08:48

Speaker 2

For sure, yeah, it definitely doesn't affect me as much as it used to, but I'm still dealing with the aftermath of that today.

08:56

Speaker 1

Yeah. And when did you realize, you think, that I was a narcissistic parent? What was it that brought you onto that subject?

09:03

Speaker 2

It was definitely the Internet that brought.

09:05

Speaker 1

Me onto that darkness.

09:09

Speaker 2

I can't really pinpoint when I do think it was early to mid teens, and I remember realizing this, but everyone else in my life that I would come to about it sort of dismissed me and refused to recognize it or couldn't recognize it. They're saying, your mom's a great mom. She's doing her best. And I think that it was true that you were doing your best with what you had at the time. I felt really alone and scared and invalidated, and I didn't really feel like I had anyone I could trust or talk to about it, even my friends, because you were like the cool mum. Because that's. I think one of the ways that you can come across if you're quite narcissistic, is that you create as like, your mask or your Persona that people see.

10:10

Speaker 2

And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is it would be harder for you to mask around me.

10:17

Speaker 1

That's what narcissistic people do. They gain adulation from external and everybody loves them. And then at home, when the doors are closed, it's not the same.

10:27

Speaker 2

It's really different.

10:28

Speaker 1

It's really different.

10:28

Speaker 2

Yeah. It was not a fun journey to go down or a fun realization, but ultimately, I'm glad that I did realize it earlier on because it means that I could start working through it earlier on as well.

10:47

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I remember the moment that I realized that I had to start making some changes as a parent was when. Do you remember that one winter where we fell out and you climbed out your bedroom window and then we found you in the snow, curled up in the snow and you were really young? Well, maybe eleven or twelve, I think. That was like, it was before your granddad died, so it would have been before I started my shamanic path. But it wasn't that. You were about twelve, I think, or eleven, which is the year before your granddad died. So I think that at that point I was like, oh, something's going badly wrong here, and I think it might be my fault. And I said that to Scott. I was like, we are doing something wrong. It shouldn't be this way.

11:35

Speaker 1

What can we do differently? And I don't know if you remember, we had a chat with you about it and were like, do you remember that? You were probably totally checked out, and don't blame you, but we did try. And like, I mean, I'm also really bad at it because neither of us had any positive role models and we didn't have any modeling of basically just like decent parenting. And at all, Scott's family's system was also extremely narcissistic, just in a different way. And he came out of that with different issues. But we both definitely were, like, making mistakes as parents because he was. By that point, he'd been around about five years, six years, maybe.

12:16

Speaker 2

Yeah.

12:17

Speaker 1

So were like, right, we need to make some changes. And it was hard because it's like when you realize that you've been the worst. Well, obviously this is the language that I use at the time. It's maybe not the language I would use now, but at the time, I'm like the worst parent in the world. When you have that realization that this is all your fault and you have to make sweeping changes when you cannot change anything, you've tried to change like I've tried to change and I haven't managed it, how the hell am I going to do this next thing? So there was a bit of a victim mentality in there as well that I had to work with to try and deal with that. That.

12:57

Speaker 1

So we started to change some of our parenting techniques at that point, I think, which worked, I think that helped, but the narcissism bit eluded me for some time to come and. But that whole healing journey that I went on, so granddad died, I started in shamanism, and I think that's when the momentum really picked up. Right. And I'm wondering, how did you experience my journey of healing?

13:27

Speaker 2

So I think that I experienced it. I didn't really believe it at first, to be honest. I was like, well, because of the up and down nature that I'd experienced through my childhood, I was like, well, here comes another phase of everything's going to be fine, and then it's not going to be fine. But by this age, I was like, it's never fine, ever. I don't believe it. I'm calling you out on your BS. I'm not doing it. But I think once I realized that was something that was really going to stick this time, I was relieved. Obviously. It started the journey of me and you being able to have a better relationship, but it also gave me the opportunity to look at my own narcissistic traits that I learned through childhood, which wasn't fun because I was always like, well, that's my mom.

14:27

Speaker 2

That's not me.

14:28

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I was always like, that's my dad.

14:33

Speaker 2

We both had quite a lot of similar narcissistic issues, I think. So I think it forced me to look at my own issues in that regard, and it also meant that I had you as a role model, like my mom, as a role model, which I think. I mean, I could be wrong in saying this, but I do think that's quite a rare thing to have, at least at the moment. I've not witnessed loads of it.

15:02

Speaker 1

What do you mean by that?

15:03

Speaker 2

Like, as a 15 year old who's grown up with a narcissistic parent, for their parents to notice their own traits and to then work through it, and then you get to have them as a role model for your own issues. And it might be more common than what I've experienced, but in the world around me personally, it's not something that I've seen lots of. So I feel a bit lucky in that regard that I have that.

15:38

Speaker 1

And do you think that some of your peers experience similar issues with their parents?

15:45

Speaker 2

Yeah, 100%, in different ways. And I wouldn't say. Pardon me, I wouldn't say that their parents are all narcissists or anything like that. But I do think that ultimately, most people have narcissistic traits of some type that they could work on 100%. And there's very few people my age that I know whose parents really are doing the level of work that needs to be done, really, in order for them to have better relationships.

16:22

Speaker 1

Interesting. Cool. Okay. Well, what I would like to also talk about is, like. So sometimes I'll say to people in mushamanic groups and stuff, I'll say I was narcissistic. I was a narcissist. And they'll say, I'm sure you weren't. No, you weren't. You were doing your best at the time. You were this. You were. That you weren't.

16:52

Speaker 1

And they actually find that quite invalidating for me because I was a narcissist, I was going to swear there, because not only does it invalidate your experience, which was pecking off, which is awful, and caused you major mental health issues throughout your teens, which are still dealing with now, but also it invalidates my perception of that, my ability to take responsibility for being a total shithead to you, and my just hard work at digging myself out of that hole and learning what it meant and breaking family curses. So when people say, no, you weren't, I'm like, I was. You were, for sure. And ask anybody. In fact, what I find quite interesting is going back now, even to friendships and stuff, I'm like, oh, yeah, totally. But actually, the vulnerable narcissist.

17:49

Speaker 1

So not like the malignant grandiose one, necessarily, but both are as bad as each other. But that woes me everybody has to. It's just really hard to describe quickly without boring people with hundreds and hundreds of stories of my narcissist. But I would like if anybody. So I had a really no self esteem or sense of self. So if anybody criticized me, do you remember trying to pull me up for things and criticize me? It was not okay. It was probably dangerous, honestly. I remember being so slippery and so intelligent and so able to make the other person feel like it was their fault. It got to the point where you were like, fine, I'm not going to argue with you. Basically gray rock to me. Right?

18:46

Speaker 1

Yeah, but, yeah, I'm just like, I want to bring that in because just so people can understand the severity of what I was, like, based. And it was because of my childhood as well. And I know my grandparents were on both sides. They're all narcissistic, probably because of their trauma. So you could say, it's not your fault, it's okay. But I think that level of being able to look at oneself and in that pure, bright light and be like, oh, my God, I'm so ashamed. I'm so ashamed. This is so painful. I've ruined my daughter's life and I've missed her childhood. Yeah, it was like, heartbreaking. So what I'm really glad for, and what I'm really grateful for is finding shamanism. I'm really grateful for you being so, like, not. I mean, you did lose a lot of yourself, right?

19:56

Speaker 1

But you didn't lose all of yourself. There were good bets in there, right? Yeah, good bits in there. And my good bets come from my parents, so we always get the good bits. It's just that sometimes the bad bits outweigh the good bits. So for you, being able to also. So our relationship now is very different. Right? So being able to hold space for each other and recognize when those old patterns come into play and talk about it and bring it up. How do you feel about that, about our relationship now?

20:28

Speaker 2

I feel really good about our relationship now, to be honest. I think there's room for it to grow more, for sure. I think there always is. But I think compared to where were even, like, three years ago, I think that it's quite unbelievable how far we've come. I remember going back to three years ago, maybe. I remember raging and trying to smash up the house and screaming and shouting and you weren't trying to smash up the house, but you were screaming and shouting back and it was chaos. And I moved out around that time and came back like two ish years later. And I don't think we've argued once, I think we've had discussions, but it's not been like that in a really long time. I think that's something for us to both be really proud of.

21:27

Speaker 1

It's not easy. No, it's really not easy. And then Miran, right?

21:30

Speaker 2

Yeah.

21:31

Speaker 1

Miran comes along. Little Miran.

21:33

Speaker 2

What are we blessing?

21:33

Speaker 1

I know. So I'm curious about how you feel about. It's interesting because your relationship with siblings is quite an interesting one. I'm wondering how you feel about your youngest sister because you have others.

21:46

Speaker 2

I feel great about her. I actually really enjoy getting to look after her because I do that five days a week while you work. And I think for me a lot of the great things that comes from hanging out with Mirren is the fact that I'm able to provide her and be a part of providing her with a sense of security that I didn't experience growing up and makes me quite emotional when I think or talk about it. Yeah. It heals my inner child, being able to be a safe, protective space for her.

22:30

Speaker 1

She's great though, right? She's so funny. She's nothing like you as a child. I love you both equally and dearly. But you were like to say you were so bright and just lovely and gentle and kind and do you remember you used to gather stones off the driveway at the local cafe and sell them with people in the cafe for a pound and they would just give you money like that. Someone gave me five pound for handful of gravel.

22:59

Speaker 2

Gravel.

23:00

Speaker 1

They just handed me a fiverr. Crazy. Yeah. Whereas Maran is like wild. She's a wild of. If you were going to describe you as mythical creatures, you're kind of like the garden fairy. And Marin's the. She sweeps in and just breaks stuff down and calls you out and brings your attention to things and has absolute power and dominion over her space. And yet she's very willing to, as a two year old, she's actually quite willing to listen and she now knows how to accept boundaries and say sorry when appropriate and stuff. She's getting quite good at that even for such a young age. But it's interesting to have two kids that are so very different.

24:00

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, my guess would be like a lot of that would be based on your environment as well.

24:06

Speaker 1

I was listening to a psychologist today and talking about that and when she was saying that you're born with, I'm not going to remember the words because I never do, but you're born with certain traits and then your environment either enhances or not those traits. So you were born with kindness and gentleness and calmness and your environment didn't that I would say you remained very much like that, whereas Miran was born like you slept all night from a really three weeks old or something. I mean, there's a whole thing I could go into there about what we know now about leaving babies to sleep on their own, but I won't for another podcast perhaps.

24:55

Speaker 1

Whereas Maran, who I have to be fair, treated in a completely different way because I know when you know better, you do better still, I don't think slept the whole night in her life, but we co sleep and it's very lovely and it's great, but she's just so different. So apparently you're born with traits and then your environment then builds or whatever.

25:17

Speaker 2

Because I remember when I was younger, before I got to my teen years, I was kind and sweet in all these things that you're describing. But I remember not feeling safe to communicate things out of fear of, I guess, ridicule, being ridiculed or shamed or disappointing people or letting people down or a word that often came up for me as a child was like selfishness or I was selfish. I think I was scared to be selfish and all these things. So I think that's where my earlier comment about environment comes, because that was.

25:59

Speaker 1

Like, called yourself a lot even though you weren't.

26:01

Speaker 2

Yeah, I don't think I was.

26:04

Speaker 1

Now, definitely you were a child. I was the selfish one, FYI. All right, so on to your spirituality, which is actually quite different to mine. Would you like to share a little bit of information about your spiritual life?

26:22

Speaker 2

Yes. Feel a bit nervous talking about it because it's still fairly new, but here we are. So I would call myself a Christian, and the reason for that is. So I tried lots of different spiritual things, including shamanism, and I didn't really like, when something clicks, nothing really clicked. I didn't really believe it. I was feeling frustrated and thinking, oh, I'm doing something wrong here. There's something wrong with me because I can't do these things that work for other people. And I'd grown up pretty anti Christian, so I just hadn't even considered that. And I'm not really sure what started. I think it was some random YouTuber that I like. Turned out she was christian and that sort of started it sort of sparked curiosity in me about it.

27:18

Speaker 2

So I looked more into it and it was like I heard you describe one time about shamanism, like feeling like you were coming home. And that's how I felt when I was reading the Bible. And it was like all the other things I'd read about and learn about with different spiritual paths and religions, it was like all of them clicked and came together. So although I dabble in lots of things spiritually, I would call myself a Christian because that's the thing that clicked.

27:48

Speaker 1

That's the thing that's your umbrella for all of the things that you do.

27:51

Speaker 2

Yeah. It's what tied it all together. And for me, I like the Bible because as I change and grow as a person, I feel like it's like a mirror for me. So when I change and grow as a person, the metaphors and symbolism hold new meanings for me. So I could read the same thing ten times. And every time, if I've changed and grown every time I read it, I'll understand it in a slightly different way. And I think that's really beautiful. Yeah.

28:23

Speaker 1

And so for you, am I right and say Anna's. What I'm hearing is that it's that the stories and the symbolism of the Bible supports your personal healing journey.

28:34

Speaker 2

Yeah, I would say so, yeah. I don't know, I just get it. Yeah.

28:43

Speaker 1

Lovely. Do you think that our spiritual lives overlap?

28:47

Speaker 2

Yeah, I would say so. I know that you've mentioned that you sometimes work with God. Is that correct? Or one of your spirit guys.

28:56

Speaker 1

Jesus.

28:56

Speaker 2

Jesus. Specifically, Jesus. That makes sense.

29:00

Speaker 1

We love Jesus. Yeah. That was a funny one because I was used to be anti religious as well, and not really anti anything anymore. It's not really how I work. It's not good for me. But Jesus came to me as a guide, like right at the beginning of a mushmanic training. And I think he came as a guide to teach me love, acceptance and non judgment.

29:24

Speaker 2

Yeah. He's definitely who I really work with the most in the Bible. What was the question?

29:35

Speaker 1

How do our spiritual lives overlap?

29:38

Speaker 2

Yeah. So there's that for a start. But I think that we do very similar work, but we have very different ways of describing it and we use very different words and terms. But for me, I think that what we do is it's the same. Right.

30:04

Speaker 1

There are million paths to heaven. You just have to find the one that's right for you.

30:07

Speaker 2

Yeah, exactly. For me, I think that any kind of, no matter how different it looks, any kind of spiritual path that leads you to true healing is the same. It's just worded differently.

30:21

Speaker 1

Yeah.

30:23

Speaker 2

And I know that I'm very intuitive. I like working with people's dreams, and, yeah, I think we're very similar, and.

30:35

Speaker 1

We do live in a blended spiritual household, which is great. I think we're not all homogeneous blobs, just all, like, following the same homogeneous, making everything the same. So, you know, my granddad would always be like, he's next new big spiritual thing. And we all had to follow along and do exactly what he said. Otherwise, were, like, cast out, basically.

31:00

Speaker 2

I know that was your guy. I was like, seven, eight.

31:02

Speaker 1

I don't really know. That's what our house when we was like. So here and now in our community that we live in with some of our family, not all of them. So for anybody who doesn't know, we live together. Me, my husband, Marin, and Eve live with my sister Wendy, who many of you will know and love, her husband and their two kids. So we all live together, and we bring many different spiritual backgrounds and spiritual beliefs into the household. And I believe that all of us are valued and respectful. Is that your experience?

31:36

Speaker 2

Yeah, definitely. I was scared to come forward and talk about the fact that I was into the whole Jesus thing.

31:46

Speaker 1

I was quite scared about that because.

31:50

Speaker 2

It felt so different. And I think Scott was actually one of the first people I spoke to about it. And then he was like, oh, I've been dabbling in a little bit of that. I told gradually told everyone else about it, and everyone was so loving and accepting, and I think that I knew that deep down. But maybe my ego or my surface level fears I haven't worked through yet.

32:17

Speaker 1

Were like, oh, don't do that. You won't be accepted.

32:20

Speaker 2

But I was, and I think can't speak for anyone else. But I think for me, talking to everyone, I always feel valued and respected for my belief, and I think that's great.

32:33

Speaker 1

Yeah. Do you remember the conversation we had the other day when you were telling me about your visit to church, and I nearly exploded?

32:40

Speaker 2

Oh, yeah. You didn't handle that well at all.

32:42

Speaker 1

Can I tell the story?

32:43

Speaker 2

Yes.

32:44

Speaker 1

Right. So you go to church, which is not for the first time, which is not what I had a problem with, by the way. So you arrive in church, and there's, what do you call them? Prophets or prophecies.

32:55

Speaker 2

I can't pronounce it right.

32:57

Speaker 1

So people who basically prophesize at you about things or, like. Yeah. Basically know about.

33:03

Speaker 2

Don't fully understand it.

33:05

Speaker 1

Right. Okay. So basically, you arrive, and the guy. And it was lovely, right? The guy was like, oh, welcome. Here. You can sit with young folk, you had a lovely time. But there was a woman who was known as, like, the prophecy person or a really good prophesizer. And you were like, whoa. It's like she saw right through me. Right?

33:23

Speaker 2

She did. I'm telling you, she saw right through me.

33:26

Speaker 1

I was like, okay, hi. So from your perspective, which I thought was super interesting, you were like, oh, it was lovely to be seen. And from my perspective, I had a hassle. Fat. I tried not to, but I was just like, that's so unethical. Like, go around seeing through people. That's, like, not a good use of ethical use of your gifts. And then we had this whole thing backwards and forwards, and you were like, mom, I hear you. But it was fine for me, I think, as well.

33:58

Speaker 2

For me. I was like, I am in a spiritual place. I am here to receive. I didn't expect that. I wasn't expecting to be prophesied or.

34:11

Speaker 1

Whatever you call it.

34:15

Speaker 2

But I was like, no, this is a spiritual space where stuff like that may go on.

34:21

Speaker 1

And that's okay with me at all. So fine. So the sensible part of me is like, yeah, I hear you. You're fine with that. But the mother bare part of me and the bit of me that's like, because one of my things is ethics right now. I was just really struggled to come to terms with that and not feel the need to be like, babe, protect yourself from these people. And it was really interesting because it also made me look at my biases a bit more carefully because I've had my time in church, I've been a Christian in the past, and that didn't go well for me. So I do have a bit gently underlying some of the reactions that I have, really. So there's definitely bumps in the road, but I think we really try and be open and keep it somewhat humorous.

35:11

Speaker 2

Yeah, for sure.

35:13

Speaker 1

Try and laugh about these things. And you're, like, washing the dishes with bigger as I'm trying not to say anything about. I'm sorry. When have you washed a dish? I washing dishes at that point. I don't wash many dishes right there. That's so funny. FYI, I don't wash dishes very often, I have to say. That's not one of my jobs in the house. Delighted about. It will change, though, when Marin's a bit older and I don't go to bed with her, and I'm up when we do this, when I can get her to do, no, that's what I did to you. That's what I did to you. I'm going to try not to do that with. Maybe I'm not quite over it. All right. So what I really love is I love how you use your book of psalms.

36:03

Speaker 1

Right, because you use it like an oracle deck, don't you?

36:05

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's how I describe it, people.

36:08

Speaker 1

Yeah. So I wondered if you can share what you do and how it works and maybe you could share a redone for our listeners today.

36:16

Speaker 2

Yeah, for sure. So I got a book of psalms from Scott for my. Wasn't my birthday, it was Christmas a year or two ago. And ever since then, I tried reading it from front to back, but that just wasn't really working for me. And I realized that something I could do would be to use it like an oracle deck, in the sense of I could sit with it in my hands, which is what I do, and I ask God for guidance on. Or I ask him a question, normally for guidance on a problem that I'm going through. Or sometimes I forget to just kind of worship rather than just praying for myself. Like I can forget to give thanks, essentially. So I'll ask, what is it that you need to hear from me right now?

37:09

Speaker 2

And then I'll read either a verse or the whole chapter, depending on what feels right to me at that time. So that's how that works for me. So I've got my book of psalms here and I'm going to just go through that whole process in my head. So, moment of silence. And I'm going to ask what he thinks that the collective needs to hear that's listening to this, and this won't be for everybody. If it resonates, great. If it doesn't, and that's fine. And if this isn't your thing at all, feel free to just skip right past it and not listen.

37:53

Speaker 1

That's okay, too.

37:55

Speaker 2

No hard feelings. So, yeah, I'm going to just be quiet for a moment and connect in with that.

38:13

Speaker 1

Okay.

38:19

Speaker 2

So this is chapter 50.

38:26

Speaker 1

And.

38:26

Speaker 2

I'm going to see which line resonates for this moment. No starting. Okay. Moment of silence. I'm going to connect in my book of Psalms and ask what needs to be heard right now. Okay, so this is chapter 31. Line? What line? One. I'm not really sure how you're even supposed to say it. I don't really do this out loud very often, but it's the start of chapter 31, essentially. In you, o Lord, do I take refuge. Let me never be put to shame. In your righteousness deliver me. Incline your ear to me, rescue me speedily. Be a rock of refuge for me, a strong fortress to save me. So that's for you guys. Lovely.

39:55

Speaker 1

Thank you.

39:56

Speaker 2

You're welcome.

39:57

Speaker 1

So nice to get to share that kind of work. It's funny that we end up doing really similar things, but through very different mediums. And we talked about this recently, didn't we, about scottish folk magic actually being really syncretic and absolutely woven in with Christianity. Really interesting. Do you have any questions for me?

40:21

Speaker 2

Yeah. So my question for you is, what are the best and worst traits that you recognize in me, that you also see in you? So start with the best.

40:33

Speaker 1

That's hard. I don't know. I'll need a minute. It's a good question. Well, how about I start with the worst, and then we'll round off with the best? Okay. Sure. It gives me something to think about after this. Well, maybe the rages. What rages? I've never raged in my life. That we both can have 100%. You had one yesterday. That's why I brought it to mind. It was on the day before.

41:07

Speaker 2

It was a very minimal rage.

41:09

Speaker 1

Very short. Very short. It was like less than a minute on your way out the door. But that's why it's fresh, because you've not done it for so long. I was like, oh, God, I felt.

41:22

Speaker 2

The fire in that moment.

41:23

Speaker 1

Yeah. So we both have that. I mean, a bit of rage is not necessarily a bad thing, but that.

41:32

Speaker 2

Was a little bit misplaced, though.

41:33

Speaker 1

Yeah. It's like pathological rage. It's, like, really not appropriate for the moment. A little bit shocking. For what's one thing?

41:42

Speaker 2

Nine times out of ten, it's about something else and not about what's in.

41:45

Speaker 1

Front of you, for sure. Maybe the untidy thing.

41:53

Speaker 2

Yeah. That sucks.

41:54

Speaker 1

We're both really gross. Yeah, really untidy.

41:57

Speaker 2

I'm actually not that gross anymore. In my defense, I'm untidy.

42:00

Speaker 1

I'm a lot less gross. That's the second time you said that. Sorry, this is really hard to hear. I don't like my question. I take a bath. I don't like my question. That's so funny. Yeah. But we are both way better than we used to be. For sure. I'm definitely better than you. Yeah, you are actually better than me, for sure. Your room is always. I mean, I do often have to do a cup amnesty to your room and my room at the same time. I'll do them both together. Yeah, that one time yesterday. You must drink, like, 40 cups of tea a day. No, I do. So. That was tricky. This is tricky ground. Okay. I could think of more, but let's stop there. Like, to think. That feels like enough.

42:48

Speaker 2

No, one more.

42:49

Speaker 1

Why not? One more? Go crazy. Okay. When you know the right thing to do, but you just do stupid shit anyway.

43:06

Speaker 2

Yeah.

43:08

Speaker 1

Yeah. Sometimes with men.

43:13

Speaker 2

Often? I mean, like, pretty much only. Well, for me, I feel like.

43:18

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, I might as well. Yeah. Scott and I have been together 17 years now, so I haven't had to worry about that for a long time, which is great, but, yeah. Stupid decisions with men. But you're doing so well.

43:34

Speaker 2

I am. I'm doing really well.

43:35

Speaker 1

Killing it right now.

43:37

Speaker 2

Totally killing it.

43:38

Speaker 1

Totally breaking that cycle, mom. Yeah. It's amazing. It's like four, almost five months of single. And you've been enjoying that. Yeah. I just don't have to think about anyone's son.

43:56

Speaker 2

I don't know.

43:59

Speaker 1

Which takes us nicely into the best traits. So they just talked about that ability to be like, I need to change this, and then just doggedly working at it. That's a really good trait that we've both got.

44:12

Speaker 2

Yeah.

44:14

Speaker 1

You're very funny. Now, the thing is, I am really funny, but I'm just not as funny as. You're so funny every day. You're sharp as a bucket. It's so good. Yeah. So that's really nice. What else? I don't know if this is a trait, but you quite look like me. That's nice. Yeah. We look, like narcissistic. Well, look at this beautiful mirror in front of narcissistic. But I do like the fact that you look like me and mirren looks like me as well, which is really nice. Although, weirdly, if you look at your dad, you actually look really like your dad as well. Yeah, it's a weird mirror. Like, you know, those holographic mirror things. What else? Really good. You're really good at stuff. You try. We're both quite good at stuff that we try.

45:09

Speaker 2

Well, interestingly, though, I don't tend to try stuff if I don't think I'm going to be really good at it.

45:14

Speaker 1

Yeah, me, too. There's, like, things anyway, I'm trying to find good things. We have good things. What else? Let me think of one more trait. The best heart, I think. I think we both have a lot of heart. Like, a lot of love for people and a lot of, like. We're very caring. I think we're both very caring people, which is really nice. High five. All right. Well, that was lovely. I really enjoyed our chat. We got started eventually. Yeah, there was like, just, we'll have to cut it out. But there's like 20 minutes of Eve just giggling at the beginning of the cry, laugh in and having to just breathe and work through that and get. And I just started eventually. And you can hear that in your voice at the beginning, probably, that you're a bit like, sure, I was like.

46:09

Speaker 2

Laughing during your introduction.

46:11

Speaker 1

Yeah, a little bit. But that's good. That's all part of the vibe. Growth, baby. Exactly. So I don't know if anybody will find this podcast helpful. I hope some of you might. And I think one of the reasons that I wanted to invite you on to have this conversation is that regardless of where things are at, things can change. Like by digging where you stand and bringing your focus inwards and being able to just, you will live through the pain of looking at your shadow. And don't forget, actually, that in your shadow are often some of your best bets, as well as your bits that you don't like. So it's always worth that.

46:53

Speaker 2

Anyway.

46:54

Speaker 1

Until next time. May the wisdom of the ancients guide you. The warmth of your hearth comfort you, and the sacred cauldrons within you find harmony and balance.