SHAMANTALK
Elwynn Green on the Witch's Devil, Ancestral Magic, and Finding Balance
Join us for a deeply engaging conversation with Elwynn Green (@TheAntleredCrown), a generational hedge witch from England, as he shares his journey from being raised by two powerful witch aunts to becoming a practitioner himself.
We explore the often-overlooked magic of everyday life, why imagination is more powerful than visualisation, and how traditional witchcraft asks us to live in the liminal space between the mundane and the mystical, without losing touch with either. Elwynn discusses the importance of deconstruction before reconstruction in spiritual practice, the animistic spirit within crafted objects, and why taking yourself too seriously can lead to spiritual burnout.
We also dive into navigating social media as a spiritual practitioner, the difference between herbalism and wort cunning, and why being “lost” might be the truest state of all. Plus, hear about his forthcoming book Between the Horns: A Book of Liminal Witchcraft and why glass jars might not be the magical containers you think they are.
You can find Elwynn @theantleredcrown on Tiktok & Instagram
Transcript
Hello, welcome to Shaman Talk. I am rather delighted to welcome Eloin Green
as our guest for today. I’ve followed Elwin for a while um and was rather excited when he was like, “Yeah, sure.
I’ll come for a bleather.” Um so you’ll find Elwin, let’s just start off with the important stuff on. He is the antler
crown on Instagram and Tik Tok and he is a generational hedge witch from England
which is important to me because I have a whole English branch of my family and
I and I don’t spend a lot of time connecting with that side of my lineage. So I’m quite excited to have to pick
your brains today. Um, and from what I can tell, your uh your vibe is being on
a mission to pass on guidance and gifts from your lineage. That seems to be what you do. You do it really generously via
your social media channels and your podcast and your Patreon. Um, and I want
to know first your origin story, Ellen. Tell us how you ended up who you are.
All right. Uh, well, thank you for having me here firstly. Um, okay. Oh,
okay. Well, I was um raised by my aunts primarily, my two aunts. Now, um in
truth, only one of them was my aunt. Um when I say my aunts, people I think
people assume that they were probably a couple, but that’s not the case. It’s more that one of them was my second
cousin once removed. The other one was my great aunt. And so by the time I was
born, one of them was about 40 years old or late 30s to 40 years old. So I always
knew her as my aunt Silv. Um she was adopted officially by my great aunt
because her mother died when she was very young and they were neighbors. everyone, all the family lived on the
street, you know, and basically her mother died when she was very young. And
so she went to live with other people. These people weren’t very nice people. Um, but when my aunt was 18, she adopted
her because they used to have her around living with them most of the time anyway because these other people weren’t very good at raising her. So she was her mom
basically. And that that was that. And as time went on, um, it just so happened
that those two together with my great aunt and what my great aunt did and then
it became that way that my aunt um, she had gifts herself. And so the two of
them together worked. That’s what they did. And they they they lived together
um, and so all their life. And then when I was there, it was very much the same
thing. I was kind of unofficially adopted by my aunts and so I became like
the third one there in a in a in a manner but um as I got older I ended up
caring for them uh in their old age and um that’s
kind of a thing it was a lot of the times people said to me you know you know I gave up they they say I gave up
it’s like you g you gave up maybe like your 20ies especally actually not really because in truth I wouldn’t have even
been here if it wasn’t for them you know and so therefore it was for me as well
it was a it was a time of healing and learning and obviously by that time I’d learned a lot my aunts were considered
witches um although they would never really say that they were witches unless
they had a drink in them um and then they would say that they were witches but the next day they’ll say I didn’t
say no um I think that just follows there’s a
taboo especially from much older generations uh back then you just didn’t say the
word because it wasn’t really something that people were ready to accept easily and so um but they did workings there
was healing readings spirit work um and stuff like that even botanics in the way
of war cunning and stuff um and that’s how they made their living they they they that’s how they did And they were
very good at it. They were they were in newspapers and things like that. And uh some famous people would go to them for
healing as well. And um yeah, they they did very well. And so as
they got older um as it happens, obviously the work became less because
it used to be word of mouth, you know, that was kind of the thing, word of mouth. Um less so now. and their belief
was very much we don’t really advertise ourselves, you know. Um and so they kind of stuck to that
very similar um belief that we don’t advertise ourselves. And uh I at the same time was
kind of like you kind of need to advertise yourself. Like no, no, no, no, no. And so
they always told me I was going to do what they did. And I was like, I don’t
want to. Not because I didn’t actually want to. I just didn’t like being told what I’m going to do,
of course. Um because I’m incredibly stubborn. And so I went away and became an
archaeologist. And I I did that uh for a few years. And
I I loved it. I was I was good at it. I enjoyed it. I it was something that I really enjoyed doing. And then I moved
to America and found it very difficult to get work in archaeology in America.
It doesn’t carry over very easily. Um, and then I found myself uh well
actually before that I was sent a pack of tarot cards by my aunt who at this
point my my my aunt my not my great aunt but my aunt was still alive and she sent
me and said you’ll need these. And I was like oh for goodness. Anyways, they sat
on a shelf and they did nothing for almost a year and then it just happened.
I don’t know why or how it happened, but it did. And I kind of accepted it. And
as soon as I accepted it, everything happened almost it felt like overnight, you know. And here I am doing the same
thing. And funnily enough, my aunt uh she passed um a few years ago
now, but she is probably around almost every day
telling me things like I you know what it’s like communicating with spirits, right? Like it can be strenuous.
Sometimes we get images or feelings or memories that aren’t exactly ours. you know that that kind of with her it’s
very much like boot the dooring knock things over crashing in hello here I am
and I will have a a full-on conversation with her sometimes a bit of an argument with her and sometimes she’ll be like
put I have a picture of her along the ancestral altar and occasionally she’d be like make me a coffee will you I’m
like oh for goodness sake and so I have to make it but she doesn’t I I made her a coffee once with the coffee machine uh
I splashed out on a coffee she and um she went, “No, I don’t want that.” Like,
she wants the instant coffee cuz that’s what she likes. She’s like, “G give me the instant.” I thought, “For goodness sakes, she’ll so I go and make an
instant coffee and I have her coffee and you know, things like that.” And it was occasionally I I used to smoke a pipe. I
still do sometimes. I smoke a pipe and um I think the last time I actually saw
her, she had given up smoking, which was a big thing for her. She’d done it for many years, but she gave up again. Uh
even though she knew that she was dying, she knew she was dying at that point, but she didn’t tell anyone. And uh I was
outside. She was in the garden. I was smoking a pup. She went, “Blow it in my face. Blow it in my face.” I went, “No.”
Oh, go on, please. Just just I love the smell of pipe tobacco. Blow it in yourself. It reminds me reminded her of
her uncle. I said, “No.” And I always regret that because she knew she was dying and at the same time I was just
with her health. I didn’t want to try and get her back into smoking and so except that she knew that she was she
was very not well and um yeah so that was quite funny but I I tell you she’s
so strong is that because she was my mom basically she really was my mom. Uh I I’ve always thought of her as my mom. we
even look similar um in that way. And she,
my wife is going to hate me if I hate me for this, but she basically possessed my
wife. Um my wife has this ability. She’s actually quite clairvoyant. And I didn’t
know this, but it’s happened to her before. But my wife, we we went out and we had a few drinks. My wife came home
and she’s asleep and all of a sudden she sits up bolt bolts upright. my wife and
I’m and she looks at me and she turns her head and she looks at me and she goes and she says, “Now my wife has an American accent and she can’t do any
other accent apart from American accent.” She tries to do an Irish accent sometimes. It sounds Jamaican. It’s quite funny. And she looks at me and
with my with my aunt’s accent, same voice. It was everything. And it was she
went, “Hello, love.” I went, “What are you doing here?” And she was telling me all these things. And one of the things
she said, “Was I a good mom?” I was like, “You were the best mom.” And just Everything about her demeanor changed.
She settled in this way. It was amazing. And she was talking away to me and she
wouldn’t. And I was like, “You can’t be here.” S like she’s asking about the
kids and things and I’m like, “This has been lovely.” I said, “But you have to give my wife back her body,
you know.” Um, and she’s not going to like that. And she gave a giggle cuz she knew my wife wouldn’t like that. And
that was part of the the fun of it for to be honest with you. Um but uh yeah
that’s that was an amazing moment and it’s something that I needed cuz I wasn’t there. I was in America when she
passed. I didn’t get there in time and uh that was one of the massive
regrets and I think she knew that. So there’s there’s always been this huge link huge link to my aunts. I owe them
so so much for that. And um but that’s the thing. Wherever we were
with my aunts, we had a spirit room. It was called the spirit room. And you were encouraged as a kid to experiment
and express in strange ways. I remember they had these um these stones and I was
lining up stones into strange shapes and she said, “What what are you doing?” And I was trying to
explain I must have been about five or six years old. I was trying to explain that a spirit had told me to do it. And
they told they asked me what the spirit looks like. And I explained what the spirit looked like. This person looked like this man in this room. And then
they my aunt told me the man’s name and who he was and what he does. And the spirit room was a room where you could
go for all sorts of things. It’s basically where people would come who are clients for healing, for readings,
uh, mediumship, you know. Uh, but it was also the place I like to hang out the
most. It was such an amazing energy in that room. Uh, and if you ever felt
unwell, just go in the spirit room. You’d usually feel better soon enough, you know. Um, so yeah, it funny enough,
my office has kind of turned into that as well now. It’s become the spirit room and it’s it’s does the same thing. Yeah,
exactly. It it it becomes this thing and so
it’s it’s weird because there’s so much of what life growing up was now and I
recognize that with my kids as well. I see my my daughters and they things they ask. Do you pass that on to your kids? Do you
like naturally? Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. It’s it’s it’s one of those things that I think that I was never forced to
do it. It was just one of those things that natural curiosity and um my kids very much they in in
different ways all of them they they want to learn things you know they want
to pick up these things and do these things and they each one of them are very creative kids as well which helps
you know because I think one of the things that nowadays you know when you read books
about spirituality and witchcraft they say the visualize.
You know what we have to do is visualize this. And personally, I think why can’t we just use the word imagine? Imagine
was okay when we were kids, but all of a sudden it became too childish and and
and yet it was this whole thing that we based our our whole youth upon and which
informed us is our imagination. Your imagination is so important and
we kind of are told that you know our imagination it’s silly now and we just encourage
just your imagination. Yeah. Instead we have to visualize because it’s it’s much more proper and I
think that bollocks to be honest. Excuse. Sorry. Um me too.
But I think imagine is is is exactly what it should be. It should be it gives more. It gives a sense of possibility
uh of what visualizing is is kind of oh probable. That’s what’s probable and
it’s logical. And do you think that um imagination is
something that I will work with some clients to help them reconnect with their imagination because it’s something
that you know you just relegate it to like a dusty toy box. Do you think that I I talk about imagination as like the
the gift that we as humans have that connects us to spirit? It’s the it’s the
we need it. It’s like literally the thing that like makes all the things we do possible. Yes. Yes. It really is. It’s it’s it’s
the gateway, isn’t it? I suppose in many ways in that sense it it everything that we perceive has been born from
imagination. Everything that we make, you know, all the buildings, all the art, all all the the parks, if you walk
through the park and the layout of it, it’s all comes from someone’s imagination, it it was there first. And
I think the idea of of, you know, being creative, and some people are creative. Every single child is creative. There is
no child that has like zero talent in in creativity. Um,
and that’s one of the I think that’s one of the things that people say. They’re like, “Am I just imagining these
things?” I’m like, “Well, technically you’re imagining everything.” Like, it doesn’t matter. You know, it like if you
perceive a spirit, the spirit doesn’t walk around looking like that. It’s what your your brain is making sense of the
energy you’re perceiving and turns it into that image. And so, it’s the same when you look at a piece of art. You’re
looking at a piece of art and you may feel sad. And yet, the person who painted that, that’s not what they were
trying to convey. you know, it’s all down to your own experience, you know,
and it doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Um, I think, yeah, I I love imagination. I
think it’s one of those things that adults need more of, if anything. M I remember being a kid and we had this
me and my brother had a bunk bed like one of those old wooden ones you know and uh I remember us like my brother was
like 8 years older than I was but he used to like play with me sometimes and we’d pretended it was a pirate ship and we’d put a big sail on it and we’d go
and steal my mom’s all my mom’s costume jewelry and put it in a pillowcase and that was our that was the loot and we
like silly things but looking when you look back on it are you genuinely it it’s It’s it’s it is literally like an
adventure. It’s it was like a story, you know, and that’s the power of it. It
creates such a strong anchor of emotion that you can draw on. Um and I think
Yeah, that’s it’s it is one of those things, as you say, a gift. Yeah, definitely. I was uh I don’t know where
to put it now, but um I I was quite surprised the other week I
saw a podcast, you know, the diary of a CEO podcast. It’s like a business
podcast with like Steven Bartlett. Yeah. Occasionally I’ll like stick my head in and see what he’s doing because
sometimes he’s got quite good guests and he had this neuroscientist on called Tara Swarps or Swart I think her name
is. I know. Yeah. anything going to she’s talking about like her husband died of
leukemia and she realized that he was communicating with her and the signs
that he was giving her and she’s now written this book called the signs which I thought I’m going to buy that because I want to know how the mainstream are
interacting with these ideas and I was delighted because that’s one of the
biggest podcasts in the world and like these ideas are slowly starting to like filter through to the mainstream um and
Yes. It’s because she’s able to like discuss what’s happening in the brain and the science and all this.
Yeah. Um but it’s like science is catching up in a in a way and things are becoming
more accessible and that’s quite exciting. Yeah. Oh, definitely. I I I know the one
you’re talking about. I saw it as well and it was quite funny because I think the line was is that she’s been able to
unlock or to discover how to communicate with the dead. And in truth is is
although there’s all the as you say the neuroscience and the jargon, it boils down to exactly the same thing that we
were saying in the first place for people have been saying for a very long time. Um but now obviously that’s it’s
it that’s the thing, isn’t it? If you’ve got letters and things in front of your name, um it it it seems to you’re taken
more seriously in those matters and therefore it becomes, as you say, more mainstream in that way. And um it’s always been the
way, isn’t it, though with like witches especially like all of a sudden like I’ve been saying that for ages. Yeah, I
know. But now that person said it and you’re like, “Yeah, great.” Yeah. So this she’s talking about like
how to, you know, how to recognize signs and synchronicities and um I do I teach
something called omen walking and I’m like that’s what that is. Yeah, we already do that. Yeah,
I’m very I’m very I am very strange with podcasts. I I really I do love podcasts.
Um and funny enough, it’s one one of the things like if I’m typing and things like that or I’m working, I just listen
to podcasts like it’s it’s very background stuff, you know, and uh but
often times there are certain things where there’s things about witchcraft and stuff like that. Sometimes I feel
like when you work within witchcraft, you need a break from it. I do that
because otherwise you get a bit of a busman’s holiday thing going on. And so sometimes it’s nice to and you know,
personally for me, one of my favorite ones is one that’s done by Bob Mortimer
cuz that guy just makes me laugh. He is so funny. He the but it’s also the
imagination aspect. He has such a wonderful imagination. the things that he can come out with and
they’re so ridiculous, you know, and yet I find things like that also helpful
because oftentimes when you listen to people being silly, not taking
themselves seriously, it inspires you. It inspires me at least in my craft. Sometimes I do Tik Toks that are silly
Tik Toks, but it’s because I I need to. If I think sometimes taking yourself too
seriously with things is it gets exhausting. It’s tiring. And you talked the other day actually. You were talking about
where was it? Psychic burnout. You were talking about that in one of your Right. And I think that exactly ties into that.
It’s like what are you like? So I don’t I wouldn’t probably wouldn’t term it the same thing, but I think the I think what
I see in a lot of my students especially in the earlier days is they’re like spirit spirit spirit spirit spirit
spirit spirit spirit. Everything’s about spirit. seen through that lens. And there’s very little humor involved and
everyone’s very serious and um uh and there’s this like overwhelming
need to discuss it and prove it and show it and be it and experience it over and
over and over again. I’m like, yeah, I did it myself, I have to say. No, no, that’s the thing. I I um someone
recently said this some there so many questions about their spirit and they like I want to progress. I want to
achieve the closest form I can to my highest self. I was like, why? It sounds
boring. Like, you are a spirit. Your spirit will
continue to be a spirit. It has an eternity of time to do what it needs to do. Right
now, you’re a human being. You’re a body. Be a body. Enjoy it. You know,
it’s I think that’s the thing is is that you know, if we keep looking up, we end up treading in dog [ __ ] you know, as
you’re walking along. You just keep looking up to the heavens. Keep And it’s I think that’s the thing about witchcraft. Witchcraft is where the two
meet. We keep a try and keep a level view. So, similar to a tree, you know, too much
height, it falls over. Too much root, it becomes stunted. Um and so it we need
that balance in order you know as we as we yeah we talk about the um the three cauldrons for that. So we are like lower
cauldron is like root of self nervous system feeling safe in your body da da da da middle cauldron is like shadow
emotions how you interface with the external world and then the upper cauldron is the
spirit space whereas so if you don’t have your lower two in order
this gets wildly out of it just goes crazy delusional sometimes there’s like
lots of things that can happen when you’re not like rooted and grounded and you’re like you say in like we’re
literally meant to be living a life. So I guess what I see is if you’re if
you spend your time in witchcraft or in shamanism or in any spiritual practice
escaping your life, you’re probably not quite there with what it’s meant to be
for. Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s it’s the that idea of like enlightenment and this the image
of a of a monk kind of meditating in a monastery up a mountain. It’s like, well, anyone could be bloody enlightened
when they live up a mountain, you know? Yeah. And there’s no family and there’s no there’s no interaction and there’s
Yeah. Try getting ready for school and there’s three kids running around. The the dogs just weed on the rug and you know, all
these things going on and you try, you know, then it’s difficult, but that’s the that’s the point of it. That’s
that’s the test of it, you know. Um I think yeah it’s very much um it’s it’s
very much that people get very carried away and they get so into this what do
they call it as you say the psychosis of it uh that spiritual psychosis it can
get it can get way out of hand way out of hand. How would you advise someone who was experiencing that to
bring themselves back down? What would you I advice generally I would
I would do something that makes you feel limited
that gives you an idea of the limitation of your own self because I think when
you’re experiencing and you’re feeling these things it does feel so overwhelming. It feels so unique and
wonderful and it it can I think there is the hermetic idea that all of us our
perception is the very center of our universe of our reality and when you begin to experience that you are the
center of your universe but at the same time you cannot always you lose scope
that everyone is the center of their own universe and so therefore you feel very singular and isolated and the more
isolated ated you are. So, the best thing to do is is to almost talk and get out there and be around
normal people. Um, which can be difficult because it’s one of those things that spiritually the more you
progress, the less interest you have in talking to normal people because you realize all that they want to talk about
is I got this new car and it does this and look and you do that and it the lights flash and it tells you what
temperature it is and you’re like I don’t care. Like I don’t care. But at
the same point, it matters to them. And so forming friendships, you know, it matters to them. It can help, I find,
you know, even though you still may think this is really isn’t my thing. But at the same
time, it’s it’s something that puts you in touch with just everyday things,
everyday people doing things like that. I think that helps. So you what you were what that brings to mind for me is like
this sense of compassion that perhaps can disappear a little bit when we get
into this uh space of I’m so spiritual. I’m I’m so above it. There’s it’s not
there’s no love there really. The love kind of takes a backseat a bit. Yeah. Yeah. It’s true. I think that’s
the I think that’s also because of modern living. Modern living now means that you don’t you can go through your
life not having to depend upon community where you know before it was like oh I
need things that person is a baker that person you go out into the community you
get all the things you need you know the people you work together to help each other and so therefore if you are trying
to or you do obtain spiritual enlightenment and you through witchcraft or whatever form that you’re doing in
paganism or whatever ever you still have that anchor but now people don’t they
they completely shut themselves off and isolate themselves and so but they continue to try and progress and it
becomes really lonely um and at the same time I do understand because it is one
of those things it’s like I don’t like football right I I will watch a football game if it’s like a big one you know
because you kind of have to you’re obligated in them many ways you know But or the same with rugby. I watch a big
game, but I don’t care. I don’t know who you’re talking about. I have no idea.
And yet I will happily sit there and let you tell me about it. Yeah. Because I love the fact that other
people and I will be like, I have nothing. I don’t know. And my friend says to me, he went, “Do you want to come and watch the foot the rugby?” And
I was like, “Yes.” And there was two of us, two of my mates sitting there. And we’re sitting there and he he says, “Do you want to be?” “Oh, yes, please. Thank
you.” And I’m sitting there and I’m I’m enjoying myself. We’re sitting there watching the watching the match and he
they’re talking away and I’m like, “Oh yes, yes.” And he looks over and he’s like, “Are you all right?” I was like,
“Yeah, yeah. I’m having a great time.” He’s like, “You following this?” I was like, “I’m following the game. I don’t
have no idea what you two are talking about, but I’m happy to join in, you know, as long as you know that I’m” and
that’s nice. He knows that I don’t really give a [ __ ] about this, but at the same time, I like spending time with friends and I like, you know, there’s
some and I think that’s that’s the thing remembering that other people just because it may not seem important to you
in the way of spiritual things, they’re doing what they’re doing and they’re happy enough to do it. We can’t
all become whatever you know like monks or whatever enlightened being, you know,
it’s it’s not supposed to be like that. No. And you know what as well there oh
so many directions we could take this conversation in. Um the other thing that that makes me think of is uh well two
things. You know we mentioned the monks on the the mountain and you know that is one way right that
is a way definitely but I think it’s a very specific way. It’s not for
most of us actually and a lot of the a lot of um those types of ways are very I
mean there’s quite a it almost like removes the feminine right it removes the balance a bit so
for me I’m like which then ties in also to this like everyday thing you were talking about so for me
as a like mid4s woman with kids there was a
lot of stuff growing up especially in the ‘9s that was like um it you know
transcend ego and you know just lots of things that meant that I had to like
remove myself from the life I was trying to live. So then I got to the point where I started thinking well why isn’t staying
up all night with my sick sick kid seen as spiritual? Why isn’t me like
sacrificing my body for my children seen as spiritual or like I’ve got a 24 year
old and a four-year-old. So gap my gap is large. So I’ve done like I’ve like
bookended, you know, we were talking about your cats earlier, your book end cats. So I’ve bookended our family actually generally generationally. So
I’ve got the oldest and the youngest. So the youngest, she’s four. We still cos sleep. We still breastfeed. I’m like
that’s one of the most beautiful things I can do in my life. But yeah, in many ways by many people isn’t seen
as spiritual. So I’m like, let’s bring it back to the everyday people. Let’s say it, you know, like you’re saying, go
to a football game with your friends and Yeah. be compassionate and interested in what
other people are doing just because that’s the right thing to do. It’s just a nice thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
it’s it’s I think that’s one of the things is there there’s a lot of um people separate they separate the things
that are like witchcraft and the mundane life and then they kind of they they
struggle with the balance, you know, they they kind of How would you say people can get back
into balance? What would you tell people to do to like get back into balance? truthfully
uh this is a this is something I’ve actually I’ve written about and it’s
it’s basically about becoming the witch and witches
when you boil them down to their essence their transformation that’s what they’re
always been about uh if you look at deities around witchcraft transformation
and it’s always about transformation of self whether it’s a literal thing or figurative ly and I think to become a
witch is about undergoing a constant state of transformation. But one of
those things that you achieve is you stop resisting.
You don’t belong. You don’t really belong in the world of like the mundane
stuff and you don’t really belong in the world of spirits. You believe you belong
on this kind of fine line between which is the hedge and you you you start off
by jumping from one to the other. You oh now I’m in the world and you know what now I I need a bit of this so I’m going
to go over here. Oh, I don’t like this now. I’m going to go back to this. And it’s never enough either way. And it’s
it’s this idea because we keep trying to set up shop in one place or the other where in truth we don’t belong in
either. We’re allowed to go into one and go into the other, but we actually live on that in the hedge which can be
in many ways it can be a a lonely place in that way. But then
again in witchcraft that’s the idea. Witches live on the outskirts of communities. They’re never the focal
point of the community. And I think that that’s the point of it. So I think that
once we accept that I don’t belong. I don’t belong. There’s this amount of people tell me that they’re lost and
say, “Elvin, I’m lost.” So, so am I. Like, I’d be worried if you wasn’t.
Being lost is great. I’ve been lost all my life. And it’s I’ve I’ve I’ve accumulated and I’ve acquired and I’ve
met people and I’ve lived in places. The most wonderful things. And everything I have in my life that I’m grateful for
now is because I’ve been lost and I found it. Like what a terrible thing to know where
you’re going, to know what’s happening. Like it’s it’s generally genuinely it I
could think of nothing worse. It’s purely the illusion. When we feel like
we know what’s going on, being lost is a truth. Everything else is the illusion.
We just want to feel safe. Oh, I know what’s going on. All these things are happening uh to me and I don’t know
what’s going on in this chaos. It’s always been chaos. That’s the point. It’s okay to be chaos. It’s okay. It’s
it’s a it’s a thing of nature. And yet we we are encouraged to create these
bubbles around us where we can pretend we’re in control and everything’s fine
and good times are there and we can switch it on and off like a switch. And then all of a sudden something happens
which reminds us we’re not in control of these things. If we remain stagnant there will be a change like the tower
moment sort of thing, you know. And I think that that’s the point where the
moment that happens, people scramble. They scramble for some sense of control. It’s a bit like people who get screen
dependency. They don’t know what to do then. They’re like, I need something. And instead just let it happen. Let Oh,
I don’t know what’s going on. Let’s see where it takes us, you know, get excited about it. And I think that’s within
witchcraft. That’s what it that’s what it means to be the witch. You are no longer in control in that way. You it
will take you where it takes you. All you have to do is be taken by it, you know. And um if you resist it, it only
damages you. It only creates friction for you. And uh I think if people were
able to do that they would they wouldn’t get that feeling of hopping from one to the other mundane magical between those
two. They will find that that balance where the two bleed into each other in I
mean the mundane is magical. It’s purely just
repetition. You know we do things it’s a repetition. It it it robs it of its
magical. And yet I was, what was I doing the other day? I was doing something and
it was incredibly mundane. And my my um my middle child, she’s seven, and she
she she comes to me and she says, “Can I have a go?” And I was like, “No, no, no. I’ve got to do this.” And she’s like, “Please.” And it was like the most
mundane thing. I was out in the garage doing something, and she was like, “Oh, please, please, please. I” And I was
like, “Yeah, go on then.” And she’s and it was it was like woodwork thing or something and she’s doing it and she was
so happy and excited. She was like this is amazing. To her it’s magical. To her it’s one the most wonderful thing ever.
To me it’s not purely because I’ve done it so many times. You know it’s just a mundane matter. It’s it purely down to
perception. That’s all that is. That’s what makes something mundane is is is your perception of it and what what
worth it is you know. And so I think once you you allow that flow,
you start to you’re able to shift your perception. You’re able to see the magic when you wish in the mundane and vice
versa as well. Sorry, I waffled on there a bit. It was a wonderful waffle.
Yes, it’s fabulous. Um, it actually makes me think of the way that we the
way that I might talk about that with shamanism being one foot in and one foot
out and walking in that like liinal space between. And it’s really interesting the more I like
so I find my I don’t know how much you know about my background, but I find my way to back to spirituality through
shamanism originally when my dad died. um and then find my way to like British
folk magic and then find my way to witchcraft recently. And I’m that’s why I’m like I
was talked to Gio and I’ve talked to you and and I’m just like really fascinated with the um natural overlaps of what it
is that we do. And I’ve always had the belief that it’s we’re you know there’s a million paths to heaven and you just
got to find the one got to find the one that’s right for you. And then that was a question I did have actually was I wanted to talk to
you about um tradition versus creativity. So a lot of what I teach is
like we have the traditions and we have the steps but actually I’m I’m a lot like bringing
um your sense of it, your creativity, your connection, like make it real for you. You know, if you love elements of
witchcraft and you love elements of what I do and you love elements of chakras and you love elements of yoga and you
love it, just bring it together and create something that works for you. Um, but I’m also a bit of a fan of tradition
as well and I don’t want to lose tradition. So, I’m wondering what you think about that. I think that that’s
the thing is is that I I I I thought about this a while back because I I thought to myself, is there actually
such a thing as traditional witchcraft? Because as soon as it’s it’s it’s given
to the next generation, it’s not the same. It’s never going to be the same. Like it’s it’s it’s the same of being
like, I’m going to show you how you paint a boat. Now, you paint a boat. They’re not going to be the same, you
know? And so the meaning of that boat is never going to be the same. So I view
traditional witchcraft almost like inspiration.
It’s it’s something that can inspire us. We look to the past, look to the people of the past, the people who were close
to us, and we see how they sought to gain influence within
the world, and we can apply that to our lives. For instance, there’s a there’s a
book um known as The Long Hidden Friend by John George Hoffman. Um he lived in
Pennsylvania in the I think it was the 1800s. It may have been earlier than that. I’ve got it there. I can’t get to
it though cuz I’ll probably end up tipping the thing on me. But um he was
uh a Dutch um practitioner. Um although his wife was actually the
one who was the practitioner, he took the book from her and then kind of passed it off as his own. But that book
is absolutely full of charms for cows.
uh if your cows have saws, if your cows have all these things. Now, you can quite easily take those things and just
apply it to a person, you can use a charm that was meant for a cow, but put it on a person cuz unless you actually
have cows, it’s not going to be much use to you. Um, so you could you could try,
but suppose you go around dairy farms, be like, “You got any uh cows that need help?” Oh, there you go.
Like this one as well. Yeah, this has got a lot about sheep and cows in it. Like a lot. for anybody’s listening. I’m holding up
Carmina Gadelica Hens and Incantations from the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. Yeah, that’s fant that’s a fant and and and
the same thing. It’s because it was so important to people. That was people’s livelihood. That was that was so necessary. And
you can still apply it to other things that are necessary to this day. It doesn’t have to be, you know, a cow. Uh
it can be a person. It can be even something to do with like if it’s your livelihood, a job. And if a job’s going
a bit shaky or, you know, you need to fortify it. And
I think that that’s the point. It’s an it’s it’s always evolving. Traditional witchcraft is always evolving. It’s
never going to be the same. We’re not the same people. We don’t have the same worries, you know, as as people 500
years ago. Um, and so it’s the same thing like with candles. People love
candles. They love a candle in a spell. I I like doing spell candles. But in
truth, that’s that’s it’s a it’s a it’s a more of a modern thing, the candle,
because what was the point of using a candle when you had a fire going most of
the year in your heart? Just use the fire. It’s a source of light and heat
the same. And it has a chimney. And often times the chimney was the the altar space, you know,
okay, all things would go through. So, also candles were expensive. Um,
I was going to say, yeah, were they not like quite expensive? Yeah, they were quite expensive. Only rich people had candles. Most of the time we made candles out of beef fat and paper.
We kind of wrapped up beef, fat, and paper. They stunk, you know, but they weren’t much good for doing to be
honest. So, you know, I think that the way that we
take things now, I’m very much my practice looks very strange because I I
don’t like things that are conventionally pretty. Um, I’m often times wary of things that
are conventionally pretty in witchcraft. So, like spell jars. I hate a spell jar.
I’m famously known for hating spell jars because in I don’t know what that is. Can you tell
me what tell me what a spell jar? Spell jar is basically you take a have I got one? I’ve got a well I haven’t got a
spell jar but I’ve got these jars that I keep things in. So, I’ve got like I’m holding up a little a little vial,
little glass vial with a cork in the top. And um often times people will put
herbs and bits of crystals in it and then they’ll close it off with usually
they’ll put a bit of wax, ceiling wax on it, and then they’ll hang it up somewhere. All right. Now, I I get it.
It’s very popular and I think it’s popular because it looks pretty. To be honest, it looks nice and it’s something
that you can do. It’s very easy. But the way I was taught, because folklore is um
very important in in traditional forms of witchcraft, it’s kind of where we get a lot of the information from and it’s
passed on. Is that glass is meant to hold the energy and contain energy
instead of releasing it. It’s a bit like making yourself a cup of tea, but then putting it in this glass, putting the
tea in the glass and sticking it in hot water. Nothing’s going to happen. Um when you look at oh goodness like
alchemists and uh in places where glass was much
earlier developed and discovered and used in like um Arabia and places like
this and in the Middle East glass was being used to contain things to hold things. We put even in laboratories now
glass is what’s used uh because it’s non-porous and so it holds the spiritus
of things and it contains and yet we put things in so that it releases them which
doesn’t make sense to me which in traditional witchcraft we put things in sachets and bags or wrap the map in
cloth and things like that. Um, if you look at the story of Snow White,
Snow White was put in a glass coffin. And and yet at the same point, why was she put in a glass coffin? Because the
seven dwarfves thought that she was dead. So why put her in a glass coffin? It was this idea perhaps the glass
contains her spirit. So the spirit could not leave the body and the body would not decay perhaps. and to preserve her
beauty and her essence until perhaps there was a way of reviving her. It’s,
you know, that has never occurred to me that glass contains. Yeah, it’s it’s one of those things, but
I was I was always taught that. So, it was like don’t put things in glass unless you want to hold them. So, glass
is great for holding ingredients or for threatening to put a spirit in a bottle.
You want to threaten a spirit and threaten it with a with a with a bottle. But um yeah, oftentimes I’ll use um I
use cloth, a bit of like flannel, uh even leather or something like this, but
I I I don’t really use glass. As a matter of fact, one of the best things that I use is pottery. Um just use
unglazed pots and I I put put things in unglazed pottery. Um which works well as
well because it’s porous in that way. Yeah, it you know. Do you make pottery for it? I do. Well, I I I actually, funny
enough, yesterday I threw away my pottery wheel cuz it broke. Um, I have to get It was one of those
cheap pottery wheels as well. You know the ones you get you can get on eBay and stuff cuz an actual pottery wheel is
like it’s as it’s as rare as rocking horseshit because and they they cost thousands. It’s ridiculously priced. So,
um I’m going to get a new one soon because I I used to make a lot of stuff out of pottery and I I get natural clay
as well. uh by the beach on the near the cliff there’s a there’s a huge deposit of clay that I I go and take some
occasionally and I make things and there’s something really
uh really magical about the process of creating the like you we can buy things
right we buy things that’s okay someone else has created something for us and but there’s something just like oh
it’s the that’s the that’s the profit it’s it’s it’s you’re also giving it an
animistic spirit when you’re creating something. This one of the reasons why I love pottery is like um this is one of
the first things I made I’m holding up here is is actually a bowl I made um that my cat uses to I keep his treats
in. So I put a a handful of treats in that and there’s his those are his treats throughout the day. But as I was
making this, it occurred to me I became very aware of of it’s very similar in
the way of manifestation. Um what we do is we take earth
um and then we apply water and then
you cannot force the clay. You have to be firm but gentle. You must coers it,
you know. And then you dry it and the air in that form until it’s dried enough
and then you fire it. Uh and it so therefore it goes through these stages
the four elements. Yeah. The sort of the four elements but each one supports the next in that way. And
so it’s very similar to the idea of transformation and how we create. It’s
not such a simple process. I think sometimes people think now even in spellwork when we create it’s from this
to that and it never is. It’s a it’s a very long becoming of something um that
eventually becomes what we want and often times we have to customize it. We have to kind of interpret what the
energies wants to do and then we have to adjust it accordingly because of what we
want it to do. we take those two things into consideration, you know, and so
those are the things that I suppose they’re the the kind of mindfulness things though that I’m always interested
in throughout spellwork of how to create things. And often times they end up looking terrible. I end up with like a a
bunch of twigs and sticks and feathers and plants and roots hanging off all tied up in a bundle and I’m like, “There
we go. That’s it.” But it feels like it that’s that’s what it feels like to me. That’s what I’ I’ve always loved that.
My answer was very much about that very earthy appearance to their spellwork that had
this there was something about whatever they did which I would say was almost unsettling because your eyes perceiving
something that are just random everyday things put together and yet you could feel that they were not anymore.
They were not those things. They were transformed and um yeah that’s the thing
I try to achieve a lot of the time. And you talked there about the animist spirit or the or the uh the enlivening
energy that we create when we make something. Um I didn’t realize that that was
particular particularly a part of witchcraft. Do you want to talk about that a bit more? Yeah, sure. Um I think that that the the
part of witchcraft is the craft as well. It’s it’s very much creating
um and using inspiration. Um, of course,
what changes it uh within my form of craft at least is
the intuitive ability to take instruction and be guided.
Um, in my witchcraft, the concept of the witch’s devil or the old one is very
prominent. And now, a lot of people go around going, “There’s no devil in witchcraft.” Yeah, there is. There is a devil in witchcraft. Um, there has been
a devil in witchcraft for a very long time. And the idea of the devil in witchcraft is very much um because he is
the epitome of what it means the magic of nature this this force this
cathonic force because he has become exactly what has been made to demonize
it in that form. He’s taken on the image. He can even take on the name and yet he draws power from it. He draws
power from that. And because of that, it gives you a taste of of what he’s about.
He never refuts this. This I don’t re I don’t I’ve never thought of of the the
folkloric devil of witchcraft or the father of witches as a god. He’s more like the air, you know. He’s like the
winds. It’s just there is present, you know. And in many ways, there is this
saying um was it I shall guide thy hand? Um, and now within my tradition,
the witch’s devil is the one who will basically he initiates us, the father of witches and the mother of witches. And
they initiate us. And the father of witches, he bestows upon us knowledge
that is often instructed by other spirits of nature and animistic forms um
to teach us and mentor us as familiars. And through this, when you’re doing a
working, there are times where you will find yourself doing something and you’re like, why did why did I do that? Or why
did I add this? And you know why, but you don’t remember why you did it or
when you did it. You’re like, that’s why. And now I’ve learned that. Where did I learn that from? And at first, you
might kind of rush off and reading a book and be like, where did I read this? and look it up to try and confirm that
what you would but eventually you realize I’m just being instructed I’m being guided here intuitively and that
is the part within the witchcraft in traditional witchcraft I think which makes it so diverse
um and creating things everything that we create similar to spellwork um when
people say they say I did a spell nothing’s happened so I did another
spell. I I wse. I go and they’re like, “What?” I’m like, “Don’t don’t do that.
It’s not It’s not like a gun. Like, I don’t think I hit it. I’ll fire again.” You know, um, reload kind of thing
because everything you do, even if you don’t see anything, you it’s happened. You’ve sent it out there. It may not be
visible. It may not happen in the way or in the place that you think it’s going to happen, but it’s going to happen. And
it’s very much like firing an arrow into the sky. You know, you have to be very
careful cuz it’s going to come back somewhere. It doesn’t just keep going. So when you do something, you have
created it. You have loosed an arrow and that arrow has intelligence. You know, magic I see magic as a as a as a
conscious energy and it is very similar. It has all similar characteristics to
other elements. uh the way it moves, you could liken it to water. You know, water finds cracks
and it it infiltrates and it can never really be contained. You put it in a cup, you leave it there, it will
evaporate, but it’s not gone. It it has to change and transform. Uh in the way
of air, the similar air is not something that we really think of much, but it supports us. It’s always present and it
is one of those things that instructs and informs so much of the world. Um,
and it’s unseeable in its force. Earth is just irrefutable. It is a constant.
Um, but yet all of these things changing. And then of course fire. Some traditions don’t actually accept fire as
an element. Some traditions see fire as a almost like a demon, a trickster that
has a need in many ways. If you think of like Norse mythology, Loki, um Loki,
why did anyone keep Loki around? Like what good was Loki? He was always getting everyone into into into
problems. And yet he was often the one who would get everyone out of the problem, but they were better off
because of it. Loki is very much fire. Fire destroys, but as it destroys, it
transforms and it fertilizes and it recreates. And so fire in that form is
very much like magic in that way. Though there is destruction, there is also life. And so you have this very strange
ether which is magic that oftenimes people say uh well they go in
and they do a spell and they’re new to magic and then things happen and it’s terrible and
they’re like oh magic is dangerous. It did this to me and it did this to me. One of the first laws in witchcraft is
know thyself. As above so below. As within so without,
which is kind of explaining what happens. Magic has this sense of rooting
out anything that is hidden. It it wishes to expose and and shed light upon. It wishes to learn, adopt,
replicate, and then change. And so if there are things within you that you do not know of yourself, magic, the first
thing magic will do as you use as a conduit is is turn those and see what
they are. try to become those things, try to show you those things that you are hiding, that you are trying to turn
away from. And so therefore, people freak out and they go, “Oh, magic is it can corrupt things.” No, it can’t.
It It’s just It’s murial. It reflects that which it is trying to hide from it
because that’s what it does. And so you send out that force. You send out that magic.
But you program it. You you give it shape. You give it form and and and name
and spirit. And you have to remember that upon its journey as you perform magic and you
send it, it doesn’t keep that form. It will adjust. It will change. Uh and
that’s always the thing you have to remember. You have to remember that that just because you wanted it that way
doesn’t mean it’s going to end up that way, you know. Um and there I am. I ranted again. Sorry. And waffle and
terrible. I know. Again, love it. Love it. The animating spirit of magic. It’s It’s
perfect. I’m going to take a detour though because I do want I do definitely want to talk to you about social media.
Um and earlier on you were talking about your aunts and how they worked with word of mouth. And I do have some um
connections with older folk who do this work and they were similar. They’re like, “You shouldn’t advertise. People should just find you.” But and it
something changed. something shifted um in the way that we interact as a
society and so a few things like I’ll sometimes
people say I you know I don’t like social media I don’t like doing it you know it feels bad blah blah blah or
they’ll say you know no I really want people to find me but I feel bad about
advertising I feel or I feel bad about being on social media it doesn’t feel spiritual um etc so I’ve had my dance
with it over the years, but eventually a few I went on Tik Tok during co so I was
like I something spoke to me. Do you know that way where you’re like ding ding ding ding something was like you need to do this so I did.
Um and all I did was just give information like I just talk about what
I think people will find useful. I’ve made amazing connections. cuz I’ve had some really [ __ ] intera I’ve had some
quite one in particular really difficult interaction where as a bunch of uh witches decide they hated me because I
talked about it was funny it was like a witch hunt by the witches it’s very funny or at least people who identify as
witches I don’t know so they like um yeah it was about sang and it was a whole thing but anyway so that happened
and then I had to like really learn how to be safe for myself as a human being
on social media and I’ve got there Now, I’m pretty good. I just don’t I don’t I
choose because of the way that I am as a person and the way that my nervous system works. I choose not to antagonize
or to touch on topics that are particularly difficult cuz as a person,
I don’t have the capacity to
argue or be in that space, right? So, that’s what works for me. So, what I do is I show up,
I give value, I sell some stuff. If you want it, have it. If you don’t want it, it’s fine. I’ve got all manner of free
things. Like, if you want to learn about what I do, you can do it for free. You don’t need Right. I’ve got the whole I’ve got the whole duda and that works
for me. And I wonder how you’ve come to peace with it and how how you and you know how
you like cuz you’re you’ve been around a long time as well on social media, right? And I’ve followed you for a while and I really enjoy your energy and the
way that you show up. Yeah. And I’m wondering how you’ve reckoned with all that energy. I have been. You know what? Funny
enough, I’ve been very lucky, I must admit, because I I know people similarly
who have terrible runins and tantamount to bullying from people who who call
themselves witches. Um I’m not going to say that they’re all witches cuz they’re not to be honest. Um but uh and I I don’t get bullied like
that. I I never have. Um and it’s one of those things that I’ve I’ve talked about
before. I talked with my wife and uh she’s like, “It’s really weird.” And one of the things that I I I hate to say it.
I really do, but I think it’s because also I’m a man. Yeah. I mean, my wife said that. She went, “You know,
I think it’s cuz you’re a man.” That and I said, “That’s terrible, though. That the fact that that that that is absolutely terrible.”
And it goes to show you just how deep the patriarchy and its claws go, though, to be completely honest.
And it was all women. Yeah. Yeah. That’s the thing. That’s what I mean. It it makes
I’m just out here doing my best. It’s really strange because then on the other side what I do get, not very much
occasionally, but I I do get women who tell me that I’m a man and therefore I
cannot be a witch. I am not in any way sacred or divine. I am nothing more than a beast that is there to serve
womenankind. And it’s very clearly very angry. And I’m like, wow. Okay. The
weird thing is I was I was being raised by my aunts. I had no idea of witchcraft
communities. None. You were told we don’t talk about this. We don’t talk
about who we are. Um there was very rare occasions that other practitioners would come and visit
us who were friends of my aunt. They would come. Sometimes they would stay, have a cup of tea and stuff, a chat, and
then they may be gone and we wouldn’t see them again for like five years. And that was it. And I grew up thinking
until about probably 9 or 10, I grew up thinking that there aren’t many witches
in the world. Like we’re we’re we’re obviously, you know, we’re just very far
and few between. It wasn’t until much later did I learn about wicker and
things like this and I I and all these other things and I was like, “This is weird.” and going onto social media, a
shitow. An absolute [ __ ] show. Like honestly, it’s it’s couldn’t agree more. The amount of people who I I I don’t
understand how someone can be like, “Oh, I’m a witch.” And I’m like, “Oh, fantastic.”
And then you see them like tearing someone else down or getting so upset or
offended on offended on the behalf of a god or a goddess. Like why on earth
would you think you need to be offended for a pagan god on their behalf? It makes no sense. like it. All that does
is show how insecure that they are within what they what they believe or
what they supposed to believe or they feel they’re supposed to believe. And I I think that the idea of people taking
themselves far too seriously. I I do get occasionally people, you know, one of
the things is is that people saying I’m not British. It’s happened a few times. They’re like, “You’re American.” I’m like, “I I’m not American. I lived in
America. I have America, but I’m not American.” And they’re like, “No, you are. It’s very weird. It’s happened a few
times. They they swear that I’m not British. And I was like, “This is weird.” Like, what? I’m not going to
justify who I like who I am, where I was born. It’s weird. It’s very strange.
Anyways, um but yeah, it I try not to
get involved. I try not to get involved. I do my own thing and then I clock out
to be honest. Um I go on, I make something, think that’s good. I hate putting myself out there. I hate
it. I I I hate it. It’s never something very good job. Thank you. It’s It took me a It took me
a lot of courage to do it. And even to this day, I go live. When I go live,
I am nervous every time. Like doing this now, I’m nervous. It’s one of those
things that I think that’s also why I waffle on so much. I’m always nervous. Um because I’m actually quite a shy
person. And I’m quite private in many ways, but I I realized is that one of the things
is that I saw so many people saying things on social media that are just so
far-fetched that I feel this need to be like, “Excuse me, are you talking about?” It’s the
misinformation there is. And it’s, you know, I think in in truth when it comes
to witchcraft, it’s very it’s very difficult to actually spread misinformation to be honest because
there there’s a certain simplicity to witchcraft that you know and yet they
managed to do it. They managed to kind of do come up with these most ridiculous laws. One of those
things was is like tarot cards like you should never buy your own tarot cards.
They should always be gifted. And then it became your first deck of tarot card should never be bought. Who cares? Who
gives a crap? If that was the case, then the tarot industry would be really bad.
Uh, you know, like just go and buy a de deck of tarot cards. Also, like there
are so many tarot cards nowadays. If someone bought you tarot cards,
you probably wouldn’t use them because they’re not the ones you would choose yourself. Like my aunt had hundreds of
decks of tarot cards and most of them stayed in the rapper. Like she had I have them here. I can’t
show them right now because everything will fall down. But her were the what do they call them? Morgan
Greer, but they were so old they don’t even they don’t even look like this anymore.
This is the this is a new deck that I got her cuz her old deck you can hardly see the images on them. They’re they’re
older than I am. and um she wouldn’t use she still used the old ones and when she
passed I I took those ones and I keep them in there and I use them when I want to talk to her especially I’ve got a question I just pull those out and she
usually turns up and asks um and uh but
she had so many like and when she passed a wardrobe full of tarot cards and was
just just giving them to people like you want some tarot cards like they’ve not been used they still got the plastic wrap around them like they’re in the box
Yeah, I have to because this Yeah, someone the other day on social media was like, um, you you have to use
a wooden candle. And by the way, you shouldn’t blow your candles out. You have to snuff them out. And I was like,
yeah, I made I think I’ve been doing this a long time. And it works for me.
I I blow out my candles. You know why? The only reason But here’s the thing. The only reason we were told, my aunts
told me to use the candle snuffer, right? And that was genuinely when we had power cuts. Use the candle snuffer
always or at dinner table. Use the candle snuffer. And it wasn’t to do anything to do with spirit spiritual reasons. It was so we don’t get hot wax
everywhere. That was it. Oh, I remember once again.
Yeah. I was I remember a friend of mine once, you know. Do you remember those Do you remember what was it called? Pier.
They used to do those shops pier where they did like natty stuff that was kind of like um world trade stuff you know
like yeah and they used to sell those giant massive candles like pillar candles. I
remember a friend of mine had one and it was burning for ages and she went over to it to blow it out and she kind of
pulled her hair back like that and she lent over and blew it and this was in like the this probably in the over I
think it might have been 90s and she she blew it and as she blew it because it made this dip the wax just went all over
her face like all over her face everywhere and once again it’s a reason
why you don’t blow that’s the reason you don’t blow out candles that’s it there is no other reason than that if anything
when you when you think about it, blowing out a candle requires you to exert breath, which in Latin means
spiritus. Spiritus literally means breath. And so therefore, it’s more it’s
more uh intuitive. It’s it’s it’s much more handson. And so therefore, if
anything, it’s it’s probably better to do that. If you’re going to snuff out a candle, blow it out. Um, but people come
up with weird I I genuinely think the thing about social media, people feel the need to continue to make content.
Uh, I do I get this thing like, “Oh, I haven’t made I haven’t made a video in a while. I should make a video.” But there
are I sometimes I’ll go two weeks without making a video because I’ve got nothing to say right now and I I I’m too
busy with my life. I’m doing things. And yet a lot of people don’t do that. They’re like, I have to make a video. I
have to make a video. So they they go do through different routes. One of the roots is I’m going to stitch someone’s
video and cause a massive argument. Yeah. Um that’s that’s one of the things
that’s the gift that keeps on giving because if you say something, let people just fight it out in the comments,
right? Uh now I do stitch people, but that’s usually just as a way of showing
other people, teaching other people what not to do rather than I try not to have
a dig at the individual. You know what I mean? Um or what they also do is they um
they just kind of make [ __ ] up. They will make something up and be, you know,
and and be like, “You can do this.” And and I’m like, “I’ve never heard that.” I will never forget this was this was
probably during COVID actually on on social media. There was um I won’t say
the name of the person. I I don’t like doing that. Uh suffice to say that they have their own problems right now with
their own uh reputation,
but they said that do you want to know how to catch a This was their video. Do you want to know how to catch a fairy?
Very angry man from America. Very always very angry. Never liked him. Blocked him immediately after seeing the video to be
honest. Um do you want to know how to catch a fairy? What? And he says, “Take a cauldron like
this.” Right. You put a cross of chalk on the bottom of the cauldron, right?
Then put some things put some things in the cauldron to attract the fairy. You like put some berries or some grapes or
something and then then once you feel the fairy is in the cauldron, put the lid on the cauldron and take it home
with you. You’ve caught the fairy. I’m like, what absolute bollocks is this?
Then he did a follow-up video saying how do you you know how um hominins
different kinds of of uh humanlike species of homminins
neandertos and stuff. He said that um the homohabilis or hobis which was a
basically a small homminin small. Yeah. They were very small. They were about 3 foot tall and they lived on basically
giant rats. that the rats were quite large and they they they lived there with like primitive tools and such
things. He said that these these were basically they are the spirits that we
call fairies. Their spirits are the ones who became fairs. I thought what these very small exclusive tribe of people who
only lived on this um Pacific island uh became the fairers that we know of now,
especially within like Scotland, Ireland, Wales. I mean, I think the she might have something to say about that, but
Exactly. And and I I just But that’s the thing. Let’s just say just [ __ ] Let’s
just say some random [ __ ] and see what sticks, you know? And it’s it it annoys
me. It annoys me so much that now I don’t I used to jump on it a lot. I
don’t jump on it anymore. Now I just kind of I find myself just rolling my eyes like you know because it’s it’s
exhausting. I you know I struggle I think that’s very um
admirable that you spend time on witch talk and spirituality talk or whatever
because I struggle with it now. I can’t even like like when I find people that I enjoy, I
get really excited. Like you and um Gio this year because she’s obviously only
been on the go since January. Um and just like people who have similar values to me. I don’t care what you practice.
It’s the values I look for, right? The soul and the what you’re attempt what what you can feel people are
doing in the world. And my whole thing is when I die, I just want to feel like I left the world better than I found it.
like exactly right that’s it that’s my that’s my concern and I reckon I’m doing a good
job of that and I just look for other people who appear to be doing the same thing and it’s quite hard to find
it is on social media on social media I think that’s one of the things is like
I one of the things is my life experience that’s probably the most treasured thing for me right now and I
think that doesn’t mean I don’t treasure my craft but the two are are almost together I I can’t have my craft and yet
completely neglect my earthly life experience and and how much I love it,
you know. And I think one of the things is is is that I I grew up I grew up not
in the best of circumstances until before my my aunts basically adopted me.
And um we were incredibly poor like we’d have like skip a meal every day kind of
thing, eat every other day and uh very much living hand-to-mouth. And now like
I get excited over the simplest things, the simplest things given me so much
joy. And I I think that my wife sometimes looks at me like I’m mad for that. Like
absolutely insane. like uh I bought a piece of furniture that
was an antique. Actually, I’ve got a lot of pieces of furniture that are antiques now. I get I say antiques, they’re just
old, right? We’re not not like Chip and Dales. But um you know, that actually kind of gives
away your age a little bit as well cuz I say that as well. My husband’s younger than me and he’s like, “What’s a Chip and Dale?” I’m like, “Oh god,
watch the Antiques Road Show at a certain time.” Yeah,
but um yeah, it but those are things that I remember as a kid, I remember going to a friend’s house and he had
furniture that was not like flatpack stuff or boxes like we had boxes. He
used to put things on boxes and they just been like, “Wow, like this, you
know, one day maybe I could have this.” and then growing up to then almost still
feeling like they were unobtainable. And then you go into a shop and like this desk, this desk is I love my desk. It’s
a it’s too big. It is too big this desk, but it was um a desk that was uh in an
RAF field local to here. And it’s got this lovely like teak top with the
leather thing. And this thing I walked in and the the thing said 50 quid. I was like I I looked at what is like see
this. Yeah. Huge big wooden like 70 quid. People just I’m like I mean
if you go to IKEA it’s probably more more. It’s probably more. It doesn’t make any
sense nowadays. So I I where growing up antiques had this huge kind of aspiration of wow you have antiques but
now it’s kind of like it’s you can go and get them and it’s it’s justifiable amount when you compare
it to flat pack furniture and so yeah I those things they give me so much joy.
My wife’s like you’re weird. I’m like I know but my husband’s like no we have no more
space for this huge bureau. I’m like, “Ah, okay. I I found a I found a thing the other
day. I’ve got it. It’s over there. It’s got a skull on top of it right now. Um, but it’s meant for plants, and it’s a
it’s a it’s a three-legged table, like plant table, but it’s got like rams
heads facing in each direction, and the legs come down and turn into hooves.
And it’s all carved out of I think it’s not entirely sure. I think it’s walnut. I think it’s carved out.” But I walked
in there. I I saw it. I want that now. You know, and my wife, we don’t help each other
when it comes to those things. I’m always like to wife, get it then. Just get it. She’s like, no. I was like, we’ll manage. Just get it. It’s fine.
You know, we’re not good at that to be honest. But, um, I think those are the
things though is it’s it’s a small thing. My wife says I’m like a hobbit basically. I have my little things. I
have my things around me that I like. But truth, I think I’ve got to that age now where that’s fine. That’s absolutely
fine. My kids can go off and do all those things. I’ve done those things. I don’t want to do them now. I I have I
set up my own little home, my own little hobbit hole in the world, and I I’m quite happy with it.
Yeah. Oh, I heard. Absolutely. Um
do you know what? I’ve had such a nice time. I’ve got um I’m just scanning down my list to see if there’s anything else
that I was like wanting to like talk to you about. But what I do want to talk to you about is your book.
Oh, yes. You have a book coming. Tell us about your book. Excited about that.
It’s called Between the Horns, a book of liinal witchcraft. And um I genuinely did not know how it
was going to happen. I I’ve been thinking about it for a long time. Um
and then I had an agent and my my I have an agent. my agent kind of set this
whole thing up for me and and I’m very grateful to them because they’ve done a great job. And so
this this book basically is it’s it’s a
it can be an introduction to traditional witchcraft. But here’s the thing. I’ve read I’ve read a lot of books on
traditional magics and things like this. And one of the things that I found irritating is they’re very basic. I find
sometimes they get dumbed down a bit to be completely honest with you. And what they do is they give you a
brief overview. So this is that and then they don’t explain why or how or all the
different diverse ways it can be used. I understand that witchcraft, especially traditional forms of witchcraft, they’re
very much an exploration and you kind of learn as you do it. But I find it difficult that a lot of
books don’t give their own example. They don’t explain what they experience from
it and how they do it. And so I wanted to put a bit of everything in the book.
Um so first of all I set up and I start the very book the
very start of the book says please do not believe anything I tell
you in this book okay this book you you can’t hold this book up and say well he
says this and this so no because just because I’ve written it you may find
something completely different you may disagree okay don’t use this book to argue with another person that’s
pointless So that’s the first thing I wanted to get off the bat. Then we go into fit means of
deconstruction. There’s no point otherwise. No book really does this. And that’s one of the
things I’ve noticed. Deconstruction before reconstruction. Let’s unknow. There’s so much that we
know. And everything that we’ve learned so far in our lives usually isn’t going to help us with what we want to actually
achieve. So let’s pick that apart. Let’s entertain the idea that none of it’s
true. That that that everything you’ve known to this moment is purely conditional.
And so I go through different exercises, philosophies, and ideas um of how to do
this and to help. And then we go into
things like uh walk cunning and different herbs. But also the difference
between herbalism as a witch and herbalism as a herbalist
because the idea of wart cunning is although we use herbs and what’s that word you’re saying?
Wart wart cunning. Wart. Wart cunning. Yeah. It’s just an old word for basically herb cunning or plant
cunning. Um, and we have this idea now in herbalism that well you take this for
this chamomile will calm you. Valyan will help you to rest and sleep. And it
does. But what is neglected is the animistic spirit of the plant. We work with the
spirit of the plant. And some of those spirits may work with planetary spirits.
They may work with other spirits of plant. It may matter how, where, and
when they are processed. And so if you bring magic back into the herbalism, you
find that you have much more effect with what you’re trying to achieve in the
form of healing and other such things. But here’s the thing. I don’t want to
kind of I didn’t want to write a book that says this is good for this, this is good for that, this is good for that. as
it becomes just an encyclopedia of herbs in that in that part of the section and there are many books that do that
right there are many books that do that so I give a brief view of herbs and association associative ingredients
that I find the most useful um and then I instead I have working
with each one and its spirit I give words from the spirit I give what you
could use it for in its traditional sense but also some words that the spirit convey which come through as a as
a almost a quote um about it that you can then kind of meditate on you can use
you can ponder and ask yourself anyway so that’s the war cunning bit and
then we basically go through many things in the creating of the compass which is something in traditional witchcraft that
happens a lot and yet something that people don’t go into very often you say here’s the compass this is how to make
the compass and then move on from there. And it’s never heard of that. So that’s interesting.
The compass well the compass is is I in many ways it’s similar to the circle in wicker casting a circle but
the compass instead of creating something. What we do first within the compass is we remove we remove the
energy. What you’re looking to do is is create a puncture. Imagine like um the
energetic field of our reality is almost like a a piece of paper. What we’re looking to do is kind of puncture a hole
in it. So then we create a door, but we also have a vehicle that goes in many
directions that we can then call forth spirits, but we can also work with other
spirits, past spirits and past practitioners, future practitioners, and it can be really useful. But
it’s not there isn’t a lot been spoken about it. I think there is a book on the compass but to be honest it was a bit
hit and miss. Um spirits different kinds of spirits
uh defense spiritual defense witchcraft baneful protection magics and then at
the very end I wanted to put in my own workings that are kind of loosely put
in. I didn’t want but it’s not a recipe book you know but just to give people an idea if they want to use them um or just
to encourage them to create their own and a lot of these ones they were ones that were given to me and I separated
them into the three knees ne is an old English word for a hand
basically so they’re the three hands uh the green hand the red hand and the black hand or the black knee the red
knee green ne and so the green kne is different preparations of herbs and the spirit spirits of herbs for um healing
and other things. Uh the red is for beneficium. So we have um luck magic,
love magic, prosperities and other such things. And then the black kne is baneful magic. It’s cursing, hexing, and
protection. Um, and there’s some of my own personal spells
that I threw in there just to people can use, but also to inspire them to perhaps
create their own, find their own, you know, and so, um, yeah, lots of
different things we I talk about like the spirit of place, the genius loai,
and that’s something that it’s versatility. A lot of people talk about it, but people don’t know how to use it,
for instance. So I kind of go into that in the book about how how we use the genius loai in order to obtain familial
spirits and work with them. Um and so yeah that’s the book.
Great. As much and there’s so much you’re saying I mean apart from like yeah apart from some of the language
that I didn’t quite grasp. Thank you for the brief explanations of those. It’s
very similar to what I would teach. I just have very different words for it which I love. I’m not going to I won’t
bother going because my listeners will be like will will get it and I think that
a lot of the people that I work with cross they do both they do witchcraft and they love the way that I work as
well. So where can when is when does the book come out? Next year I’m terrible at dates now. I think it is
ne don’t quote me on it. Don’t quote me on it, but it will be next year, I believe, September, but it will be
earlier probably near the spring for early order, you know. Um
Oh, yeah. Have you got like an early order? Or you mean pre-order? Pre-order. That’s the one. Pre-order.
Sorry. Yes. My Yeah, cuz my book my second book’s out now for pre-order and it’s like the thing where you’re like,
“Order the book. Thanks, guys.” Yeah. I um that’s that’s it. So, it’s it
will be out for pre-order probably next spring, but it it should be out to buy in early September. Next, because I
Who’s your publisher? Uh, Wiser. Wiser. Oh, nice. Wiser are great. Wiser books
are great. I like Wiser. Yeah, I do. I do like Wiser. And uh, are you finding them good to work with?
Yeah. Love it. Really do love it. They kind of They was like, “Let me know if you you need any help.” And I was like,
“Okay.” About 3 months went past and they got an email. I got an email. I was like, “Hi, Elwin. Um, haven’t heard from
you. Is Is everything okay? How’s the book coming?” I went, “Yeah, I’ve almost finished it.” They’re like, “Oh.” And so
I was like, “Finished it.” And I’ll just send it off. Um, and I was like, “Oh, all right.” Then I was like, “Yeah, I’ll
just I I literally locked myself in the office and that was it.” Um, just every
day try to write a bit. Uh, but I That’s it, isn’t it? About writing. Yeah. The thing about writing is that in
order to get the book that you want to write out of you, you have to write it. You do. That’s the thing. I I I actually
have to start writing a second one as well, which is Yeah. A thing now. Uh but I I I’ve got the
ideas and everything. Uh the second one I am not sure yet because I I still have
to talk to my editor about it but I I think one of the things is expanding more upon protection magic because
protection magic is such a diverse thing and it it can it’s a in truth it’s an
umbrella term in many ways protection magic um and that is one idea at least
but there are many others I have so many so finally ly enough, I I started my
third my third my f next book comes out in January, but I’ve started my third book already, even though the next one’s
not out yet. So, I I do I work with like Second Sight and Seership. Oh, yeah.
Um, and I support people with that. And what I what I really noticed on that topic and you know how you’re like, oh,
lots of there’s just they either do the development that it takes
to be able to connect or they do the connection. I can find a book that does both. I can find a book that takes you
from like I know I see things. I think I have this skill. I doubt myself a bit.
I’m not really sure how to do it. So I use the three cauldrons. That’s what I So it’s the met. So it’s like taking them through the the kind of three
cauldrons up to what the Irish would call imbas for which is divine illumination and how to
like do that ethically. How to like not be open all the time. Just like spirits
slapping you in the face every five minutes. Like you don’t actually have to live like that. you can decide like you can just be a little bit like
intentional about it and or picking up everybody else’s energy and stuff and we talk about that and so that’s I guess a
form of protection that like being able to like live live as an emp well I don’t
identify with that word but I know a lot of people do identify with the word empath and it’s like being enslaved to that rather than being empowered by it.
So there’s a lot of that. So last night I’ve written like So I’m going to show you. I’ve got this like new technique
that I started using. Oh yeah. Where I’ve got I bought these cards, right?
Just these like cuz I have all these ideas about how to like write and sometimes I just kind of decide what
order they need to go in. So I bought these cards and I put all my ideas on cards and then laid them out in chapters
and now I’ve got like first half of the book, second half of the book and then I’ve got like random ideas. So, I carry
this around with me so I can just write my and then I can slide them into the different places. I’m honestly so
excited by the time you get like a full book. It’s hard to like Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Play with it, you know. I I uh I actually I went out and and made a blackboard.
Uh I got a I cut a a sheet of a sheet of ply and I painted it a couple of coats
of blackboard paint and I stuck it on my wall. And that that’s helped me so much cuz I have like so many things and I’m
like right what’s the next thing I have to write and I have to write down things like okay let’s do this cuz I I I have
such a terrible memory as well like most of my brain composes of notebooks that
are colorcoded because I I forget so many things. So writing things down on the blackboard
helps a lot because I’m like where was I? I get very distracted as well when I’m writing very distracted. I I’ll start.
You find yourself writing and then you realize that you’ve been thinking about something else and you don’t know what you
Yeah. Yeah. I I I do the uh You know what I’ve been doing? I’ve been listening to
uh what’s the word? It’s it’s it’s a it’s a kind of noise. It’s a like a a
static noise like white noise or something. It’s like white noise, but it’s it’s called Oh, I can’t remember it now.
Oh, you have to email me. I can try it. Yeah. But it’s like it’s like a white noise, but it basically stops you from
it. It teaches to quiet the mind basically so you can stay focused because otherwise I’m I I I actually
taken to listening to audio books sometimes while I’m writing and it just I tried that. I can’t do
that. I I I I need silence. It changes for me. Sometimes I can’t.
I’m too flustered. And then other times I’m like I can listen to this and type. And um writing also with a pen helps for
me. Yeah. because I I type like a T-Rex.
I’m pretty good at typing, but I’ve got this I haven’t I’ve been I haven’t bought this thing called a remarkable so
many times like you know that way where you like really want it but you haven’t bought it. So it’s essentially like a notepad
that you write on and then it turns all your handwriting into notes. Oh, that sounds like a thing that I may
be getting. It’s called a remarkable and they look great and they’ve just brought out small cuz they’re I don’t know
they’re like 600 700 quid I think. They’re not like the cheapest thing in the world but they’re also like not it’s not like
Yeah. terrible but then they’ve got they’ve just brought out like a mini you know like a mini
that’s like 300. So you just you just write the word and then each word it puts into the Yep. Or you can do like mind maps and
all sorts of stuff and it just puts it into Oh, that’s really good. Yep. because there are
I am not affiliated with remarkable. Yeah.
However, if they want to send me one Yeah. You want to send me one for re pals? Go ahead.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, brilliant. There have been times where I I’m like I
get so distracted and Amanda, my wife, she’s like, “What if you say it and I’ll
just type it for you?” How’s that? If you if you can’t if you feel too flustered right now and I’m like no no no no no
it won’t work because I know that I don’t know what I’m going to say yet. Do you know what I mean? I have to sometimes I just type and I type and
type type. I look at it and I think right is that any good? Let’s edit it now. You know
um just just get it all out there. Just just as a matter of fact about writing though, right? If you just get it out
your body your shitty first draft. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s the the best
way. just just get it down and then figure it out afterwards. I ended up with loads of different different
folders with of things just because like what’s this? And I’m still finding things that I’ve I’ve written and I
forgot I’ve written them and I’m like, “Oh yeah, I must have written that at some point and I forgot.” And and it’s
good job that didn’t go in the book cuz that was terrible. So get rid of it. I’m like, “No, no, no.” So that’s why I left
that out, you know? I keep forgetting it cuz I’m like, “Yeah.” Do you do are you um I’m going
to use a buzz word, Ellen, are you neurode divergent in any way? Like
I am. I was I was diagnosed with autism when I was 21. I think 20 or 21.
Yeah. Yeah. I have I have the autism ADHD delightful mix. So I think I have
ADHD as well because you sound more like Yeah. And then so but at the same time I
was I was happy to take autism at that point. I was like let’s not push it any further. That’s fine.
I’ve got enough to deal with. But it’s actually become quite good. I find like some people get upset with
labels but and that’s okay for them. But I find it really good cuz I was like late diagnosed, right? So in my late 30s
and I was like oh so it’s not my fault. So I’m not just a [ __ ] person.
Oh okay. So this is these are things that I can work with and accept. So I
accept them about myself. I’m not interested in changing anything, but I accept them about myself and then I set
my life up to work in collaboration with the way my brain is. That’s kind of how
I do it. Exactly. That’s that’s the thing. We currently are um looking to seeing
getting one of my my daughters um because we believe she may be she’s she is like me in so many ways and she has
that thing where she gets overwhelmed and she just needs time and I’m like there there’s a lot of markers there. Uh
however that’s difficult. I said to the doctor on the phone like well can you explain to me well I have autism and I
can tell you this and this and this and this and these things she does. And he’s like okay. And then he writes he writes
a thing and in the thing he says it doesn’t sound like she’s called autism. I was like you haven’t even met her. You
just another person with autism told you that they think their child has autism and without even talking to the child
you’ve just written down. So we went over his head and we found you know we went to an all
foundation and they were like no no no don’t go through the doctors that doesn’t help. But I think it does help
to get that the in the way of labeling early on because when I first was
diagnosed I was like what’s the point? It’s still there. I’m still me. There’s no point. But as I got older I realized
that no one sees the world like that the same. It’s one of those things I discovered only a few years ago that
um it wasn’t normal to see when you’re driving at night to see all the the
streaks of light on lights. And it was purely because I have a stigmatism
and because I have a stigmatism I I I find it really difficult to see at night when I’m driving because all so all I
thought was like everyone sees like that and all you have to do is make sure that the red lights are in front of you and
you’re fine, right? Shouldn’t probably say that, but
it’s fine. No, turns out I was I think it was on a Tik Tok and someone was like, “This is what people with stigmatism see at night when they’re
driving.” And I was like, “That’s what I see all the time.” And I said to my wife, I was like, “You do you not see
that at night?” She’s like, “No.” I was like, “I thought everyone saw that like with these like this.”
Yeah. Well, I do. And I’m like, “Yeah.” And I’m like, wait, I’m having like live
on shaman talk people. I’m like, oh [ __ ] Like I see that. Is that not
right? You know what? People don’t usually see that. No. I always think people on then.
It’s basically when one of your eyes uh is either un like the retina is either underdeveloped, but usually it means
that it’s slightly off. it’s just slightly off and it puts a strain it
puts a strain on on your vision basically and so you you can get glasses
to to that helps helps basically the the thing which in truth is this the reason
why why I wear my glasses is because it helps to when I’m reading it stops me
getting a headache basically or if I’m using a screen or driving um but it doesn’t actually stop the the
the the light thing when you’re driving. Yeah, cuz I always thought that like why is everyone’s like got their brights on?
That’s what it I was like every time. Yeah, right. Why have you got It’s like But it’s turn off your [ __ ] full beam. [ __ ]
sake. But it feels like that. But it’s not. It’s just It’s just a stigmatism.
I’m like I like that. Now you know that. I’m going to call you Dr. Dr. Elwin now. That’s going to be your nickname.
Oh yeah. Magic. Well, do you know this has been an absolute delight. I’m so glad I
reached out and um cuz I was like, “Oh, he’s I bet you he says no.” I was like, cuz you know, I get nervous when I like
reach out to people to come and talk to me. So, I’m so grateful that you took the time. Oh, no. It’s It was a pleasure. No, it
was lovely. I really enjoyed it. Yeah. So, you’ll find Elwin on social
media at the Antler Crown. Um, you have a podcast called The Antler
Crown as well. And you’re, you know, I just have to say before we sign off, the
Elwin’s um, pages are full of useful,
magical, quite funny, um, grounded information for anybody who’s into like
spirituality in general. Like I think your message is good for anybody who’s who’s like, you know, connected to
spirituality, witchcraft in particular, but then also you have a Patreon where you bring people in and um you work with
them more closely and you do like various things. Let me see. Yeah, I did write a list. You do like bone casting
and tarot readings and you talk to people onetoone. You do like that sort of that sort of jazz as well. Did I miss
anything? No, that’s that’s it. That’s it. I I I it’s we’re we’re actually I keep myself
quite busy with it. So I work most most days of the week. I’m I’m always, you
know, but uh I enjoy it, you know, and I think it’s it’s one of those things that
as we were saying, times change. And I think now we don’t have to hide the fact that what
we do and that’s I think one of the things that allows us to keep it going
as well and for me to do what my aunts did. Um, yeah, you know, in this day and age, it’s one
of those things you have to be seen. As you were saying, you know, but putting yourself out there on social media is one of those things you have to be seen.
Otherwise, people just don’t they don’t have the time nowadays to stop and look and and
inquire about things. So, you have to kind of be like, “Hey, I’m over here.” You know, not
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Magic. Well, thank you so much, Elen. It’s been a real delight. Maybe I mean
I’ve got so much more we could talk about so maybe we could do it again sometime. That would be really nice. Certainly. Certainly.
Nice one. All right. Thanks for listening everyone and I’ll see you again soon. Bye.
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This is where you master the spiritual secrets of the ancient Celts and create a deeply connected and magical life.
Step into the Centre’s very special Shamanic sanctuary. Inside the Cauldrons Way, you’ll find live gatherings, ceremonies, retreats and guided teachings designed to help you activate your inner cauldrons and amplify your spiritual connection. Plus, you get near-daily support from Rhonda and her team of six trusted practitioners.
Oh, it gets better! Get full and immediate access to ALL THE PERKS when you start a risk-free* membership today
*30-day ‘no questions asked’ money back guarantee.
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