s3 128. Rev Dr David William Parry on where the church lost its way & how to find a new way forward -

SHAMANTALK

Rev Dr David William Parry on where the church lost its way & how to find a new way forward

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In this fascinating and wide-ranging conversation, Rhonda welcomes Reverend Dr David William Parry, a gay, queer Old Catholic priest, poet, and theologian whose work bridges Christian tradition, LGBTQ+ spirituality, and the arts.

As founding pastor of St. Valentine’s Hall in London—an inclusive Catholic community—David brings a unique perspective on how ancient spiritual traditions can speak to modern seekers across all paths. We explore the surprising connections between Catholic mysticism and shamanic practice, challenge mainstream religious assumptions, and offer hope for those wounded by religious trauma. David’s openness about his identity as an “unrepentant homosexual” clergyman provides refreshing honesty about navigating faith traditions that have historically excluded queer voices. ⁠You can learn more about David’s work on his website⁠

Transcript

Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of Shaman Talk. Today my guest is

Reverend Dr. David William Parry who is an old Catholic priest, poet, and

theologian whose work brings together Christian tradition, queer spirituality, and the arts. He is the founding pastor

of St. Valentine’s Hall in London, which is an inclusive Catholic community known

for its welcoming of LGBTQ plus people and its commitment to compassionate

service. David’s written several books on religion, mysticism, Dr. and has spoken at events across the UK,

including multiple TEDex gatherings. So his ministry, scholarship and creative

work all reflect his wider interest and dialogue between faith, culture and spiritual paths which really does

intersect really well with our work, our creative shamanic space where we where everything is welcome and we nothing is

h cut off not allowed. We are very um we have in our community we have Catholics

and Christians and pagans and witches and shamans and h atheists and

everything in between. So, I’m really curious to ask David lots of questions. You guys and the in my Cauldron Way

community have asked him some questions as well. So, welcome David. Thank you for being here. It’s a huge honor. Thank

you for inviting me and a big hug to everybody who’s joining us today. This is my this is my sort of gig. This is my

sort of area. I’m very excited and look forward to our talk unfolding.

Yeah. So I think the first thing we’d like to know or the first thing I’d certainly like to know and um what I ask

all my guests is what is your origin story like? How did you find yourself here as a you described yourself as a

gay queer Catholic priest doing the work you do in the way you do it? David, how did you end up here?

Oh my god. If you’ve all got a a couple of weeks put up a chair and go um what a

good question. I I’m one of I’m from that generation of gay men where you couldn’t really admit you’re a gay man.

I’m 67 uh at the moment and if I look back um you know and I used to go as a

teenager. I’m one of the old stalwarts, one of the old fogies of the gay liberation front. Um I grew up in a sort

of uh my mother was an Anglican. My my stepfather there’s a story there in

itself. Um was a lapsed Roman Catholic. So, in other words, they were both lapsed. Um, and and I remember uh the

spiritual journey uh began in many different ways. Partially starting

for me with what you could only describe as a shamanic dream out of the blue. I was 12 years old and I remember going to

bed. I was sent to bed early because that used to happen to kids in those days if they were misbehaving. I don’t

remember how I was misbehaving. And uh all of a sudden, I wasn’t in my bedroom. Um, I don’t remember falling asleep. I

don’t remember any sort of transition. I wasn’t in the bedroom. Instead, I was in

the middle of literally an allesian field. And either side of me were people

dressed in long cloth gowns uh to the left and the right. And some had the

tinge of silver and the others had the tinge of gold. And immediately in front of me, from nowhere, a Christ figure,

now I’m not saying it was or it wasn’t. I’m just saying a Christ figure suddenly appeared in front of me and said, “Are

you ready?” And I was so shocked. I didn’t know what to say because I thought basically the right worst case

scenario, God was asking me to die and I wasn’t that I wasn’t that old. So I said

no. Um and then I instantly left to this guilt trip. Oh my god, I said no to God.

No matter what, you should say yes. Um, weirdly it was the next day and I don’t remember waking up and I don’t, you

know, there’s no transition. It’s just the next day, it’s the next morning. And I felt this terrible guilt all the way

through me. You know, no m even in those days, I knew no matter what had happened, I hadn’t behaved the correct

way. I hadn’t given the correct response. And then this smell of roses was all over the house, the family

house. Everybody smelt it. Thick, intense, beautiful. Excuse me. And I knew that was a sign of

forgiveness and also get on your ass and start searching. Get off your ass and start searching. I knew it. I knew it

intuitively. And that was one of the reasons I started searching

through established traditions. I think the pagan community. I’ve had so many dealings with pagans over the years.

It’s untrue. I mean, I’m an initiated Wiccan in the Gardenerian line, you

know, as well as an initiated heathen. There are two other stories of that. So I have very friendly concord with with

pagans and the pagan community. You know I decided let’s look and see what happens but not throughout the baby with

the bath water. I think the traditional religions maybe particularly Catholicism

you know is it pagan or is it Christian? Is it pagan or is it Christian you know so let’s not throw out the big treasures

that surround us. Let’s not throw out the beautiful churches, the incense, the

candles, and all of the thought and meditation and prayer that’s gone into that. Some people could see that as a

continuation of paganism, not necessarily an opponent. And I’m not saying um you know, relations have

always been cordial, but that’s that’s showers, isn’t it? That’s human beings. My god, can we ever agree about anything? But uh you know I just think

every time I’m in a Catholic church particularly they’re not they’re not always uh not only and I see a virgin

stood on a crescent moon and crowned by stars. So what am I actually looking at there?

You know some people say that’s Mary. Of course 3,000 years ago that exact image

would have been called Isis. And of course Isis gave birth to a miraculous child who saved the world. Excuse me.

For me that invalidates nothing. For me that invalidates the reality behind these symbols and what they’re trying to

say to human beings. You know how they’re the negotiated with in every century and every civilization. And the

fact that one in particular, you know, the the the virgin, the queen of heaven. I mean, we even call her the queen of

heaven. Well, that’s Mary, but that’s also Rya, right? You know, the fact that

the even the original titles are still being used. needs to give more people food for thought, not just I’m not

listening to that. That’s that’s all Christian, you know. Gosh. Um, so my journey went through lots of lay

ministries. I mean, because I wanted to see what was around me. I mean, that was, you know, are these energies what

people think they are? How do they approach you? How do you deal with them? How do you dialogue with them? So, I

spent ages sort of lurking around Unitarian churches. Um, I was very I’m

still very influenced by that theology and you know sort of do I become a minister with them or not but um I mean

everything in free church takes forever. Anyone that’s ever been to free church with love and respect to free church

everything takes forever. Sorry. You know we’re all mortal with a lifespan in 60 years time. I don’t want the yes

coming through. You know I want it sort of in the next year or so. So um I drifted away from there for that reason

plus the fact I was realizing that basically I I was an unrepentant

homosexual and what did that mean? You know I I think with again gay men of my

generation you sort of think you’re one of God’s celibates. Oh it can’t be you. And most of the propaganda on both sides

that surrounds sexual alternatives gender alternatives. I mean that’s the real battleground isn’t it? Not really.

I mean right there are two sexual sorry there are three basic sexual types that’s medical you mean that’s medicine

and then the argument really is about gender you know what is it now 147 I

mean oh gosh mindboggling mind but you know I I was beginning to realize that I

didn’t really feel either particularly sinful about that um or particularly in

the wrong so where did that leave me um and you know so I ended up attending uh

for nearly a decade the Metropolitan community church in London, which is the well, they’ll hate me saying this,

that’s the gay church. I mean, it started in America during they hate me saying that during the civil rights

protest over there when, you know, black power was getting into its swing and quite rightly. And gay people from Fire

Island were sick of being beaten up in their own bars by the police. That still happens, by the way, in Britain

nowadays. That’s another story. And you know, I just started thinking, well, the

Unitarians are so lovely. I can’t really see anything being done.

MCC is so angry. I I can’t be angry 24/7. I’m sorry. You know, I’m I’m angry

with the best of them, but I don’t feel angry all the time. And, you know, heterosexuals aren’t exactly treated

well. And it comes down to things like class and ethnicity. I mean, the whole

thing’s a lot more complex than some people want to say. So I sort of started weirdly

drifting back to um oh wait one more revelation I started drifting back to the mainstream if

that’s where I drifted back uh through being ordained as a gnostic um I’m

actually a gnostic tour which is I mean it’s sort of like an archbishop or sort

of like a the nearest one is sort of like a um a in the metrop in the

Orthodox church they were metropolitan So, it’s sort of a um a bishop with a

remmit to communicate with other people on that level and try and work out what what what we’re all doing. Excuse me.

Because I had a bit of a skill with that. So, um I was actually initiated and ordained as a priest and taught in a

monastery in Italy. Um therefore, they decided to go all guns blazing. They

withdrew from me when I got back because some of them were Roman Catholic and

they were frightened. You know, I told how many times can you tell someone you’re not going to spill the beans. You know, I will not mention you by name. I

don’t know how many times I said it. They weren’t worried about the first couple of years. They were worried, I suppose, about interviews like this

donkey years later when their names are, you know, but I wouldn’t cuz you you

there’s such a thing as honor. But curiously, the Catholic community got very excited by that. The British

Catholic community, I was I’m still a little confused by that. All of my Roman Catholic friends, including the Jesuits,

just thought, “Oh my god, how interesting.” Which I wasn’t expecting at all. And then it was the old Romans

that started saying, “We understand your work. We understand what you’re doing. Why not join us?” And I I suddenly

realized that’s a way of drawing all these different threads together and making a single-minded stand. But it was

old Catholicism or or or liberal Catholicism. They’re interchangeable to

an extent that sort of finally got my attention and where I settled because

you know that’s it comes originally from the Syrian monasteries and it goes through wonderful things like

hemeticism, theosophy, anthroposophy. No one in the liberal Catholic communion

would bat an eyelid at any of that. I mean some of us have actually been very prominent in those circles you know and

that mysticism is seen as just a reality that is part of human life and so is

finding yourself and being true to yourself. So God how long was that? So

um that’s how I started and that’s where I’ve ended up you know started with a sort of limiting Catholic outlook sort

of sort of sort of I love smells and bells you know and ending up with this quite extensive uh liberal Catholic

outlook which is where I ended up nowadays. Does that answer that my god? Yeah that’s great. I do have questions

about that actually. I’m going to like dive into some of those like really fascinating. So I am and never have been

Catholic. my husband’s family are Catholic. Um, and he’s been in the

Catholic church and back out again. So, we have conversations a lot and it’s just it’s been really interesting this

last week having a chat with him about maybe some of the things he thinks about and I think. So, what I’m really one of the

things I’m really interested in, right, is that the Catholics seem to have this really

interesting relationship with saints, right? They have this devotion to saints. Yeah. And yet and similarly

perhaps how in shamanism we would have spirit guides actually it look it looks to me to be the same thing and yet

Catholicism teaches devotion to one god. So I’m a little bit like hm we’re a bit

curious as to like how you would like in liberal Catholicism how you might

explain that or just Catholicism in general because I’m like well it seems to me like you guys have like loads of

spirit guides and you’re saints but you just pretend that you don’t. That’s kind of what it looks like to me. What do you what do you think about that?

Right, I’m going to take a step back as someone that’s that’s also run a chapel. There are only 24 hours in the day.

Lovely people like you coming and asking wonderful questions about that much of the percentage. You know, old mother

Riley’s just stubbed her toe and is now on her deathbed. You know, yet another family’s had a family row and they’re

all on the verge of killing each other. Certain people down the road have no food. That’s the life of clergy. You’re

expected to do top up courses all the time to keep your your training

refreshed. You’ve got to do the academic training. You’ve got to do the sort of local training, the pastoral training,

all that’s just expected on top of everything else. So my sympathy

goes out to normal clergy because if they even understand the question, bless

them, a lot of them don’t. But even if they do, where do they actually fit that into the schedule without the area

bishop phoning it up and saying, “I’m sorry, you haven’t done A, B, C, and D. Why is that, please?” You know, so my

trouble with Catholicism actually in all of its forms is the overload. There’s

only so much people can do. No, I I think if you start talking to a

theologist or a priest like me who’s a bit of an oddity, I admit that. You know, I don’t think there’s any trouble

at all in seeing the saints human beings who’ve achieved a certain sort of

spiritual gift, who’s been who’ve been accepted by the church as having a spiritual a charism, a gift, a faculty,

an ability or something or other as a spirit guide. I mean, you know, what is it? Shakespeare says, a rose by any

other name would smell as sweet. You know what? So, you call them spiritual guides. The Romans like calling them

saints. I can’t really see the difference there. and you do ask them for help and you ask them to come into

your life and you ask them for guidance you know and that’s very natural and very patient um yeah

it’s very human you know you go up and up and up and up the scale of of being

of identity to the one unknown thing um

I mean if you listen to what the the even the sort of right-wing theologians are saying all of a sudden we pull back

their horns the minute you’re talking about Godhead. I mean, so what is it? It must be everything included, right? So

already I’m lost. I don’t know what that means. It must be everything and then a bit more. So I don’t know what that

means and they don’t know what it means because no human being can answer that. The angels and the archangels can’t

answer that. So we’re in in good company. You know, the idea I think is there’s one sounding high for a minute.

There’s one metaphysical absolute. There’s one ultimate reality of realities which is somehow characterized

by love and wisdom and everything else is in dialogue with that one fundamental

point of origin. Um which is just impossible for any being no matter how

evolved and no matter how glorious to actually comprehend and and deal with as

a whole. I mean there’s there was an old idea amongst the church elders that it was bloody hard work being in the

presence of God and you know the inattentive in congregations and congregations are human beings and they

could have locked you know they’re worried about dinner they’re worried about old auntie so and so is she okay

what are we doing after the service people need to cut each other a bit of slack you know all of all of that’s

justifiable and good and human but it does mean it’s only rarely that They

engage with the mystery that’s performed in front of them. They’re physically in a church, but they’re not really

engaging with the mystery. So, how often do they get the chance to actually sit down and think everybody’s overloading

everybody else nowadays? How often do they get the chance to sit down and think, what on earth has gone on there?

And what does that mean? Not only on this sort of pancosmic level, but for me, what does it mean for me? Um, the

Catholic way around that is to invoke the saints. Um, the saints in themselves

pray to the blessed virgin. Um, and I’ve already said there’s more going on there than meets the eye. The blessed virgin

herself prays to the son. So already I’m losing my points of reference here

because the terms, the concepts are getting so vast that I’m no longer sure

what I’m asenting to, what I’m not asing to, how I’m even meant to see this. I mean, to get back to the absolute, you

know, God is nothing. um you won’t find a decent theologian that disagrees with that at all. So in other words, God is

no thing. God is negative existence. God is the negative existential. God is the

source of sources that simply is yes, no, right, wrong and everything else in

between. Um I mean you have to leave to my view you have to leave a life of

prayer and meditation to even sort of get settled into what that might mean. Whereas us ordinary types just need the

saints, the guides. Yeah. So one of the things that we talk about or one of the things I teach is

God, the universe, the creator, whatever, you know, that we all work with the same energy. We just have

different maps, right? So for me, I’m like the guides are almost a way of that

massively huge like creator of all. It’s the way that it communicates with you in

a way that you can kind of understand on a day-to-day basis. So, some people work with guides, some people will work

through nature, and what you’re saying is that you guys work through saints.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, I I think we all get caught up on terminology too much. I mean, what you described is a liberal

Catholic view. Um, and you nearly described it in a liberal Catholic way. Um, you know, if

you were in my church, I’d have no trouble with that at all. none of the people I either serve or come to the

churches I still work with have any trouble with that. Um you know the the slight difference would be that for

uh anyone in the sort of Abrahamic stream of revelation. So you’re looking at um the Jews, Christians, Muslims,

anyone in that stream would say is God the universe? Yes, but there’s a tiny

bit more the transcendent. But I mean you’re you’re you know I can’t see the point of argue that’s interesting. I

can’t see the point of arguing unless it’s something you’re working on with that particularly because yes it’s interesting but it doesn’t make any any

real difference. I mean animism is the perfect example of a rail we need back in the church because don’t forget some

rails have gone out of fashion simply because no one ever gets to a conclusion. So in other words the the

GIA people nowadays are saying the earth is a living being. It’s a goddess. the

earth is an entity that we deal with. But okay, what’s the difference between that and the second century Christians

saying the earth is an angel who shares her life with us. So I I can’t see the difference. You

know, if people want to make a difference, okay, but let’s let’s not make differences about things like that.

Let’s see what we’ve got in common. In common? Yeah, that’s really nice. You’ve talked about Mary quite a lot.

I’d like to touch on that. One of the issues. So I’ll tell I’ll just tell you a little bit about my background which

is not vast in Christianity has to say but I do have a background. So my parents were both very spiritual people.

Um but I rebelled and went to church as a teenager

as you do only for only for a couple years and it was on the Protestant side. I did the

alpha course. I was like really in it. But then what I realized was that there was no space for me as a woman.

Yeah. In that church. And actually the other thing I realized as an aside is that the people in the church were horrible

people in that particular church that I was in. I was like, “Oh, you’re all like really mean and I don’t want to be

here.” So that was a thing. Yeah. Yeah. My husband and his family are Catholic. So, you know, I had to look into that

and I was reading and learning about what that means. and Mary seems to hold a really central place, right, in

Catholicism at the divine feminine might call it. Yeah. Yet women and Catholicism hold really

limited roles in church leadership. Um, so I have always felt for me there’s no

place for me in Christian tradition as a woman because the feminine is suppressed to put it mildly undervalued to me it

seems like in the mainstream for what I see. So even like Mary’s role

Yeah. seems to me to be the mother of Jesus. Like she’s given her prominence

as the mother of an important man, right? So to me there’s this like glaring hole in Christian Christianity.

And I wonder how you think that might that might change or that might be

different in liberal Catholicism that I that I haven’t any experience or don’t know about. But I’m really interested in

how you think women and the feminine can be more invited into balance in the Christian world or pantheon.

I I think you’re a lovely person and they should have gone out of their way to be more accommodating.

Um, you know, life nowadays is where people British people like to say no before they’ve even heard what the

question is. Um, you know, so it’s it’s good to again listen to each other. You

know, two ears and one mouth. The angels want us listening more than speaking.

Um, I have to begin with a bit of church history. Catholicism is much vaster than

people think. It originated in three places, not just Rome, in Antioch and in

Alexandria. And they are equal and ancient arisings of Catholicism. Uh, they all

have very different views. They have a Catholic stream of ideology of common

symbols and they recognize each other. I’m not sure most of the local parish

priests are even aware of that. And again, I think there if someone’s overloaded with pastoral work, they’re

not going to spend the evening with a glass of wine working out church history and why everybody, you know, I mean,

even in my case, if I go to Rome, I’m addressed as father. Um, so it’s not quite what it seems on TV. is not quite

what it seems in the popular imagination. Um, and certainly if you’re looking at Eastern

Catholics, I mean, their priests marry, they’ve married from the year dot, they have families. It’s sort of discouraged

that the bishops marry um and they they tend to be taken from the the monasteries for simple um I’m not sure I

even agree with that but you know for simple practical reasons like a bishop if he’s a monk will be able to be on

call 24/7 whereas if you’re a family man it’s not right that the wife of the kids

are constantly wondering where you are. I can see I can see what they’re saying. Um certainly patriarchy got involved in

all of this probably towards the end of the second century. You know if you’re looking at a Catholic service in the

first century it would have been where a priest or priestess um is stood at the

front of a group of people and well remember there wasn’t even a Bible then all that comes later. They might have a

paragraph of text. They might have a line somebody said and the priest will say it at the front and then people will

start meditating. What does it mean to them? And that was the church service. Um history changes, people change. Uh

the zeitgeist changes. Is patriarchy the worst thing that ever happened to the world? No. I can think of some pretty

nasty other examples. Um it’s not the best thing that happened to the world. Um certainly when the Roman emperors

start exerting their power over religion and there were political reasons why they did that. Um they wanted everything

run on a practical office-like level. You know everything will be run like an office in Berlin. There’s a clear chain

of command. You are responsible. The buck stops with you mate. So all of a sudden the more feminine intuitive uh

creative dare I say input of women is sidelined. um including the gospels that

go along with that. The gospel of Mary um is that simply a Gnostic text? No. I

mean, people got together and decided what should be included in the Bible in the cannon and what shouldn’t. And the

arguments actually are still meant to be ongoing. They’re not meant to have stopped. You know, the argument about

what do we use as the basic scriptures that were referred to, that one’s meant to stop to have stopped. But no one’s

ever said don’t look at these other resources and what do they mean? That’s just not true. So as the Roman emperors

come along and they sideline women for for political reasons and they adopt a far more patriarchal culture than Europe

was ever really used to. They get that from the Middle East curiously that things start to clamp down. So small

churches remain like mine. You know how long has it been there forever? As long as you lot. But we’ve never had any

trouble with women. Why would we? We’ve never had any trouble with people questioning why would we? Um it was the

Romans and Western Europe that started having trouble with that. But but really for mundane political reasons as opposed

to theology, spirituality and you know I’d say is that nightmarish? Of course it is. But you know that’s what’s

happened. Let’s not get bogged down with that. Rather let women find their place in a new vision of church which

ironically is our vision. you know, take your place where you should have been. Yes, it’s it’s all wrong and sinful. I

like the word sin. Um because it it admits there’s something wrong in the human being. You know, deep down we can

make the wrong decisions and we’re bloody sticking to it. Wow, that strikes me as not psychologically dismissible.

It’s not somebody, you know, oh, you were misunderstood there. You know, there there’s something wrong. Bloody

mindedness is wrong. the imper the perverse as Edgar Alan Poe used to say that’s wrong if you know it’s right why

do you oppose it right I mean that needs being dealt with I think that’s the vocation of women in the new church um I

can’t see the Romans anytime soon going a lot with that for the simple reason

they feel under attack um they are under attack um and pope after pope I mean the

last two the present one and the last one are clear liberals So, I mean, and they’ve been under attack. I mean, yeah,

why didn’t Francis do this and the other? Cuz he was under attack and they vetoed him every step of the way. There we are. Um, you know, but the point is

Leo, who I’ve also got a lot of time for on the past one, insisted that the dialogue continued. No, it’s not being

shut down. No, it’s not going to go away. And we are encouraging it. So, I suppose for me that’s the hope with with

the Roman communion. They’re very aware that something is wrong and let’s talk about it. that is as I say being

undermined by the fact they feel assaulted by the secular world by uh all

sorts of powers and enemies. They have enemies. I mean the Catholic the Roman Catholic Church have got some things to be held

account. Well I mean I I’d have been burnt at the stake in at least three different centuries. Yeah. I mean you know it

depends. I suppose I’m avoiding that for the simple I mean right one of my heroes is Godano Bruno the great free thinker

you know uh the monk the the monk that strides around Europe writing books on

mathematics what a bastard you know and sort of sort of doing ridiculous things

like saying everybody needs an education why can’t we give poor people an education you know I mean he there was a

big rail with him because he wanted to openly reintroduce Egyptian mysticism

you know all that means just you’re overly ambitious. Giodano George, it just means you’re overly ambitious. You

know, there was a I he was burnt at the stake. There was a big rail with him um about a book called Ash Wednesday supper

where he had the cheek to say we may not be the the only planet around. There

might be beings on other planets and by the way there’s a solar system. Why you’ve got to burn? you know, I mean, so

he made one big mistake at his trial and there are sort of trigger words in every group in society has trigger words. Uh,

in Roman Catholicism, it’s, “Are you speaking as a theologian or are you speaking as a philosopher?” All he had

to say was, “Hey, I’m speaking as a philosopher. I might be wrong, but he decided not to do that.” So, he was

burnt at the state. Yeah. I mean they they’ve you know the Roman church declaring war on itself from time to

time declaring crusades on itself the albenzians in France you know one of the

worst things I’ve ever heard the papal armies turn up with the paper leotard and they realize catharism is in every

family and you don’t know who isn’t who isn’t and the soldiers the generals involved said well well who do we arrest

who don’t we to which the paper le said kill them all god will know his own I mean for you But you’ve got to remember

not everybody is a 21st century liberal. Society itself needed to evolve. I mean

most of our ancestors were bastards. Um were they shining saints? No. I’m sorry.

I’d love to think that they weren’t. Um and they live brutish lives. They didn’t have medical care. Their communities

were small and ignorant and afraid of the community down the road of it. You know, we we had to advance as a species

and we had to learn from each other and listen to each other. All of that’s relatively new, 500 years.

Do you think we’re doing that now? Do you think we’re there? Yes. Otherwise, there wouldn’t be there wouldn’t be the row there is if that

wasn’t happening. Always be careful, young skellywags and rebels like you.

It’s when the row stops, that’s when all the nerves should start. You know, all

the bells should go off. Why is it stopped? Why am I no longer allowed to say these things? That’s when the alarm

bells go off. Not during a big round. No, you’re talking about freedom of speech.

Well, and a way if Yeah. No, I am. I mean, if we if we sacrifice that, I mean, really, if you

start thinking about it, that’s the cornerstone, the capstone of every other civic virtue.

If that goes, then we’ve already given into the totalitarians, the

authoritarians. You know, it does it matter what people say? Yes, it does. You don’t have to agree with them. It’s called maturity.

You don’t have to agree with them. But there was an awful man years back on um was it News Night? I can’t remember. The

there was a Thursday evening BBC political programmer Richard Dimbleby

used to host it. News night. I can’t remember. Sorry. And there were the leader Nick Griffin. Nick Griffith of

the BMP was on the on the broadcast and loads of of fellow liberals were saying

don’t let him is a disgrace don’t platform and Dimble stood his ground and so for the first time the entire country

had a chance to hear what he was saying and they didn’t like it and his career was finished the next day you know so

it’s not you know all these hidden t yeah I mean I’m just one of my

values is free speech I’m Yeah, it’s so fundamental to I don’t always

think that people grasp this, but freedom of speech, I think, is fundamental to the society that we live

in. And when we start to give away our freedom of speech for any reason, it’s really it’s really an issue. It’s

like a red flag to something much worse. And that like But what that involves is people being

really uncomfortable with what other people say. Yeah. People are entitled to their racist, bigoted opinions. Hopefully, as a

society, what we do is we remain emotionally mature enough to say, “Well,

actually, we don’t we don’t need to listen to that. We don’t need to work with that. You’re entitled to say that, but we’re

going to ignore you.” And the majority of people are quite sensible. Yeah. And I Yeah. Not platforming or not

giving people voices, that’s just Yeah. I just don’t think that it’s quite what people think it is. So, I wasn’t I’m

going to take a segue, David. Right. was the other thing that you did which I noticed from Maran was that you set up

these debating societies where you invited people from extremes of both

sides. Now I’m curious about the outcome of that. Did you find

that when you invited people from the extreme of the right and the extreme of the left, both of which I

have issue with extremes of any kind, did you find that they were able to move closer together

because they were in a place where they could have a safe debate and dialogue? Yeah. What what brought me to a bit of

notoriety donkeys years ago now is um I was invited. How did that process start?

That’s it. I put on a a haven. Now, of course, what is that? That’s Germanic

occultism, Germanic mysticism. Really, it should be Scandinavian, not just Germanic. So, my view was we put on um

the event called the London thing, the London thing, cuz it sounded hippie. And

I wanted to hear what people had to say. And it was sort of interesting and I was

on my way, as I say, to being ordained as a go at Gothy at the time. So we we uh held this I thought a very

familyfriendly that’s how we were advertising it event. I mean it went on the whole day at the Chartered Institute

of Arbitrators. We had a prepared lunch. We invited some traditional stick fighters cuz of course star stabs that

there’s a they’re runic. You make signs of runes to beat people over the head with. Uh we talked about runic yoga rune

yoga. We talked about rune meditation. We had some very very gifted speakers like an old friend of mine, Richard

Rudy, the anthropologist. Um, so I thought the whole thing was a bit of a success. Um, certain people in

the audience I’d never met before, disclosed that they were from the right wing in those days, this is a long time

back. I wasn’t quite sure what they meant. Um, and so okay, and they kept in touch and some of them turned out to be

very decent people. Um, you know, I don’t agree with them. I mean, personally, politically, I’m I’m what

they call a libertarian, not an American libertarian. I think they they get, as usual, they get the wrong end of the

stick. So, in other words, a diehard old-fashioned liberal. There we are. You know, the libertarians started the wigs

and so on. That’s where I stand very proudly because I can’t see how else we manage society and everybody get their

own sense of who they are and what they are. I can’t see any other way. Um, so I was asked to go for for coffee by one of

the rather well-known right-wingers. So, we went for coffee in the National

Gallery in London and he said uh he I don’t know if I’m allowed to name it at

the moment. He he held these forums whereby he would invite speakers to to

give their piece, but he could only ever get right right-wingers. And I said, “You find that a bit limiting?” To which

surprisingly he said, “Yes, we’re having coffee today because I think you can get the left wingers.” So, uh, we had a very

pleasant coffee and we started something called originally the extremist club.

Um, it got the the article got dropped. It became extremist club which was cooler and sexier. Um, after about 6

months and it wasn’t what people thought it was. I mean, two years of sparkling success, you know. Um, it was a club of

extremists. But what did that mean? You could be extremely good at something. you could

be extremely talented at something. So, some of it was political by by no means

all of it. The club secretary was actually a raving commo who come from Ukraine. I was I was the chair. I used

to wear this powdered wig. So, it was playing on all sorts of things, you know. It’s always a wig. It’s always a liberal that gets everybody together.

Some people got the gag, other people didn’t. And we we’d meet once a month in the old copy house in Soho. Um it was

just one romp. I mean, we had uh two incredible women. Um, one of whom spoke

for the the the plight of the Turkeymen across the world. I didn’t realize what

real prejudice looked like. Her name is Sundus Abbos. She’s an amazing amazing lady. Her life is trying to write that

wrong across the Middle East. I didn’t know how terrible prejudice could actually get and how real it could get

until we heard her speech. The right-wingers were in tears. You know, never judge a book by its cover. We had

uh Jillian Hasslam, the millionaire, the original slum dog millionaire. I mean, that phrase is real. She grew up in a in

squalid conditions in India. Um, weird story. The supernatural gets involved

there. Um, she gets to about 15, a potted aside. She gets to about 15 and

some power or force says to her in some way or other, it’s you that’s going to save the family, nobody else. So without

any preparation at all, she turned up to an open recruitment session. I suppose that’s

the best way to describe it from an American bank in the local area. And she beat all the other girls, about 200

girls in this assessment. To this day, she doesn’t know how she did it. And she ended up a big banker, uh, international

banker and a millionaire. How did that happen? None of us know to this day. and she plows unbelievable

amounts of her own money into good works in India. She sets up schools. She sends up literacy courses. We had people like

her. So we were hardly rap scallions. We had a God, you can’t keep the left from

from presenting itself. I had so many requests to come and speak from the left. I just ended up ignoring them. I

mean get put have some selfrespect for God’s sake. Some very prominent people

by the way. Then the the right wing thought it was being outgunned and I had the same from them and I thought I

haven’t even heard of you. I’m sorry but you’re not you’re not going to be a draw. We’re trying to sell tickets. You

have to buy a ticket at the door. We were in a sort of a private conference room upstairs. The pub was just literally down the stairway and this

constant stream of people going up and down the stairs which was good party atmosphere. Um one of just odd. Um I got

a fair amount of the Berian into it. Hey, I think we need listening to um this will answer your question. I mean,

there was one What was my ultimate fear that somebody wouldn’t turn up, you know, an act cuz I also wore a theat the

theatrical hat, one of the acts wouldn’t turn up. And it happened one bloody night, 5 minutes before they were due,

literally before they were due to go on, I got this phone call saying, “I can’t make it. I’m sorry.” And by the way, on the other side of the country, oh, even

if I’m in the country. So, you know, I I I called an early recess. We ordered always had a recess in the middle so

they could top their pints up. Not that that stopped them doing it anyway. Um went down the stairs fuming and using

the type of language a tour of the church does not normally use. And I shouted at the cub secretary, “Why don’t

you bloody hold things together when I’m trying to get a replacement?” When I got back upstairs, this communist had all

the right-wingers singing all these old Soviet songs because they were the only songs he knew by heart. because he’d

grown up in that regime. And they enjoyed every single minute. They were all swapping uh email addresses. They

were all on the phone to each other. Um they were all buying each other of the pints after that particular magical

evening. And it made me think, great, we lasted on that level for about two years. There’s a sort of magical time

limit to things in London for projects on that level. So it’s always about 2 years, 2 and a half years. Attendance

started dropping. We got outed by Hope Not Hate who clearly hadn’t been to any

of the clubs because that was in the text. But what did that do? It meant certain people, the more timid of the

world, even though we’d done nothing wrong. Certain people didn’t want to attend the club anymore in case they did

turn up and start asking people’s names. So, attendance dropped again. And it got to about sort of the last couple of

months of the third year and it wasn’t we couldn’t afford the room, the conference room anymore. So we we

decanted to another pub close to the Victorian Albert Museum. It wasn’t the same old theater pub and we called it

the free speech club because the the big starting point was like your good self. Do we realize what

we’re losing if this goes and by the way extremist club is about free speech. Um

but hardly anybody would turn up because they were still frightened that they were being spied on. Um, so very

regretfully, we closed both of those projects after about three years. Um, I

got notorious for a while, which I don’t mind at all. I got an apology from Hope Not Hate. I bet they’ve never issued a

retraction because that’s what modern politics is like. But, you know, I mean, you they they did their business. They

did what they were trying to do. They destabilized the project and it it frittered away. So that was my my diance

with defending free speech on a public level. But I love that. I love that. I love that it had such a such a uniting

effect. Yeah. When when it was there. That’s brilliant. All right. Cool. Well, let’s jump to some

questions from our members. So Jane would like to know. She says, “Oh,

fabulous.” Oh, um, really interested in queer theology. So, I’d like to hear from David about

how he responds to claims that the Bible teaches that being LGBTQ plus is sinful.

Oh, that’s a a chestnut, Jane. Nice to speak to you. The old chestnut. Um,

right. I don’t know. I don’t know how churches can justify the mainstream position. I mean, my I’ve got some

qualifications in theology. Some people regard me as a queer theologian. So I

mean I’ve got a a master’s degree in pastoralia pastoral theology. My first degree was actually in religious

studies. Now why why that not theology? Because I wanted to know what other people were saying. I wanted to know

from a sort of quai outside a semi- outside position what other religions were saying. I mean

I actually majored if you can put it that way in Hinduism and Buddhism as opposed to Judaism and Islam. I mean

because back then I wanted to say you know see what these people were saying. I mean the Bible like every other text

has a history. Um as I say in the first and second centuries there was no Bible.

There were documents floating around not whole documents. Most of the church had

access to maybe um an act of the epistles. One of the letters of Paul most of it hadn’t written been written

down. I mean for for spiritual reasons that the fathers were worried the

fathers and the mothers at that stage that if you wrote it down it would take

the onus away from your own meditation and all of a sudden it would be an exercise in reading as opposed to a

spiritual journey. They were very very worried about about all of that. They write about it you know sending each

other letters they’re writing about it. Um, so to have a whole Bible actually

took a couple of centuries. When people finally agreed, if they finally agreed

what should be in that book and what shouldn’t be, then that was issued as the book, the Bible. Um, it came out of

the Catholic Communion because there was no other church at the time. Simple. Don’t forget, I mean, even the great

schism between Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I mean, you know, dates, dates. I mean that’s what about the 12th

century but you know there’s a process leading up to it there’s a process after so where do you where do you date the thing um even that I mean that’s a long

time into the development of Christianity that the history of Christianity the Protestant churches are are very recent um I mean Martin Luther

is actually a hero of mine um but you know all that’s recent and Luther is

arguing as a theologian about things he really wasn’t up to speed on and I said

as an admirer of Luther. He wasn’t a historian of text. He was a theolog a

theologian, not a historian, not a linguist, although he’s a very powerful translator. Therefore,

he’s trying to work out what the Greek says and how the Latin interprets the

Greek, then how the German interprets the Latin and Greek. So already you’ve got troubles. I mean, the minute we

forget that the Bible was not originally written down in any European language,

we’ve got to start asking what these other languages were like, um, certainly, I mean, I imagine Luther’s

problems with Greek much more complicated than Latin. You know, in Latin, you have this sort of these rules

and regulations and ways to define things that doesn’t suit the Greek spirit or the Greek language at all. We

have 15,000 words for somebody how to bake a pie, you know. So, it’s it’s not

not that simple. Also, if you’re looking at the Semitic languages, if you’re looking at Aramaic, if you’re looking at

um oh, I made the point. If you’re looking at any of um certainly not high Hebrew, which was only for the rabbis,

you know, they argue all the time about what words mean even in a particular context. Um so, you’ve got a translation

problem um where people simply disagree. Does this word mean that or not? Also,

you’ve got a psychological problem. Um, it wasn’t really until after the

Enlightenment, after the great philosophers. Um, they wanted to remove our bases of knowledge, the the ground

of knowledge from theology and philosophy to the natural sciences. I mean, their their point was, isn’t it

safer to start from things we can weigh and measure than to start from abstractions? And I think that there’s a

good argument there. And they were trying to stop the wars of religion. Most of them were deists. They weren’t

atheists. Most of them believed in something or other. They didn’t say, “No, just turn your back on all of

that.” But what they said was, “But can we understand any of that really?” You know, it’s there and it’s interesting,

but you know, what do we do? So, they spent most of their time writing about the natural sciences, mathematics,

philosophy, and history. You know, this is where we’ve arrived. The concept of

different types of gender and homosexuality certainly didn’t even arise until the late 1800s, the early

1900s. The word and the concept didn’t exist. So, the ancients simply cannot

have said anything against gay people. They cannot have said um I’m trying to

think of it, you know, as a as as a man lies with a man. I mean that’s Leviticus somewhere in the way lots of modern

churches are saying they’re saying so right if you’re looking at Leviticus that’s the laws of Israel right um a

state which no longer exists with a law system that may not actually ever have been enacted um and what they’re trying

to do is what modern legislators do you start with a principle then you boil it down into everyday legislation what do

we do about a particular case but none of that survived I mean what that’s 3,000 years ago none of the books have

survived We’ve got to remember more books disappear than are ever written. More human knowledge disappears than we have

in front of us now, which is the tragedy of human life. Um if even half of it was

there, we’d be in a very different world and a very a much better one. Um so you know they they wouldn’t have had those

concepts in their head. I mean all these evil psychologists start coming along you know with the

birth of psychology started saying well isn’t this an actual type of psyche? you know, aren’t we looking at a type of

person here and not just a behavior? So, I mean, there are about seven seven mentions of about argu about seven

mentions of homosexuality in the entire Bible. Well, there are more references to how a man should trim

his beard than that. So, it obviously wasn’t the burning issue of the day. There’s only one about lesbianism that

I’ve managed to find. Yeah. I mean, was there not Was there not something about No, no, you’re fine. Was there not

something about um the word homosexual was only introduced into the Bible in

like 1946 and before that wasn’t? Yeah. Yeah. The the modern churches who of course only deal with Bibles in

English. If we’re looking at Western churches, they thought it must mean that. So we’re saying that is the

translation of that word, which is outrageous. And do you think that that came from the

already longstanding prejudice against the LGBTQ plus community? They were like, well, it must mean that because we

all hate gays in 1946. I don’t even think it was legal to be gay in 1946, was it? Oh, I think it was I think it was stood

illegal then, wasn’t it? I mean, you can’t remember the Wolfund report 58. Basically, when patriarchy comes along,

pick on people that can’t fight back. So, women are always first. you know, they’re these gays because they can just

shut up. Um, you know, anyone that’s not seen as the sort of the warrior man is

somehow lesser than the community of warrior men that govern society. Um, so that’s that’s what happened.

Could there have been more of a challenge to that? The honest answer is I don’t know because none of us were around then and the circles of

communication were smaller. Yeah. And you know the thing about it, we can’t that’s the thing that I’m

always always think about. It’s nice to know history, but we can’t go backwards. But what can we do moving forwards? So,

you seem to like in your community, in your church, you seem to be trying to do that. How do you do that? So, that would

be one of my questions like, you know, when people arrive in your

congregation who want to who interact with their faith somewhere where they’re welcome.

Yeah. Actually, how do you you bridge that? I mean, I guess you’ve talked about it a bit about how you bridge what mainstream

Christianity will often say about queer people versus how people will receive

ministry with you. Like, how do you do that? What’s the bridge?

Um, you’ve got to remember how deep-seated prejudice is. Uh, gay people

have always been the bug bear. Even of course, even though we were priests openly in the first couple of centuries,

like women were priestesses. I love the word priestess. Why can’t we have that back? Um,

so all of that is stopped with the reorganization of society with with civic politics. All that’s reorganized.

The prejudice didn’t go. I mean, but it’s not always been there in the same way. Um, and certainly if you go back

far enough, there is no prejudice. Like there was no women in second place didn’t exist if you go back far enough.

Like sort of the so the gay was the natural shaman, you know, in spirit.

Yeah, the two spirit thing. I mean, that was here as well. I mean, we wouldn’t have looked at it quite that way, but it was here. So, you were holy by the fact

you were gay or lesbian, homosexual or lesbian and untouchable. Um, so I suppose partly that was the

patriarchy making sure the old order was under control and being dismantled.

And also would that would that gay so you say gay and lesbian, would that also be trans as well?

Oh yeah, you’ve hit the point I was just about to make. what the ancient Israelites,

you got to be so careful because it’s not simple. You know what uh some of the ancient Israelites had a real phobia

about was the transgender thing. Why did they have a phobia about that? Because the priests of Babylon were transgender.

Um a man would dress as a woman, a woman would dress as a man when they were celebrating the rights of Babylon. It

was their official dress. So, are the ancient Israelites attacking us lot or

are they attacking the ancient Babylonians? Of course, it’s more more likely than not they’re attacking the

Babylonian priesthood. Yeah, a man should not lie with a man. Basically means no temple prostitution and no

Babylonian theology in our neck of the woods. Thank you. Because of course, they were they were the captives of

Babylon. They were the the slaves of Babylon. You’ll notice in the Bible, nothing bad is ever said about the

Persians. The Persians are the great liberators. They set Israel free. They had some of those practices, too. But

there’s not the slightest word of criticism because they’re the liberators. You know, how do I

personally handle that? I mean, weirdly, most of my ministries have been for LGBT communities. That wasn’t a choice. It’s

just sort of happened that way. I love ministering to all all different types of people. It’s what I do. But the

majority have always been gay communities. Um, what we do is we look at the scripture. We look at what it

says and what it doesn’t say. We look at the bits that apply to people’s lives and we empower them. Uh you’re a child

of the universe. You’re a child of the most high. We love you. The angels love you. Everybody loves you. What does that

mean in your life? Are you finding benefit in this church? Go somewhere else if you’re not. If you are, what can

we do for you? Let’s do it even better. Um I had a load of atheists that would

turn up at my church, believe it or not. Um, and we love them. Um, you it’s not about a belief system. It’s about what

you think Christianity stands for. Is it a checklist of ideas or is it a way of

loving people around you and being authentic and truthful in yourself? If

it’s that, I mean, we had all sorts of people um who we loved as part of our community and they tell us we don’t

believe in God still, you know, and that’s that’s your choice. I mean we, you know, we haven’t we haven’t told you

to believe in God. You’re welcome to join us if you find all this handy. You know what can I say to that? Lies were

transformed. Lies were transformed. People found benefit in reading the

scriptures which they never dreamed they would have done before. And the modern curse of triviality was removed from

their lives. My one trouble with the modern secular world, I love pink

champagne, so I don’t have I don’t have total troubles with uh on on special occasions. I don’t have troubles with um

even secularism. I mean, that comes from the Enlightenment, too, where they’re trying to defuse

people’s nastiness. So, you know, I have a sort of grudging respect for all of that. Um, you know, oh, I I’ll leave it

there. We try and do the best for for everybody. We try and do what we can to make Christianity a reality in the sense

of loving communion and authentic living. So we we’ll leave it there. We’ll leave it there.

I mean that’s lovely. Can’t ask for much more than that, can we? All right. So Alysia has she’s obviously done a bit of

research. Has our Alysia on David’s website. It says his personal moto is on pon. Why did he choose this moto and

what does it mean to him on a personal level which is and I’m sorry if I butchered that cuz French isn’t I was

well like a bit of French like I like a bit of French butchering. Um that bloody website. Yes, I know it needs updating.

Yes, I know it needs updating. Um it’s the French honor swarky manipul evil to

him who evil thinks. If you’ve got evil in your heart that’s all you’ll see.

Keep it to yourself. It was actually my Oh my god, I might steal it, you know. I mean, curiously, that was

used at the old witch trials in Scotland. Don’t forget the connection between the Scottish and the French with

all these priests coming over from France saying, “Oh, we don’t like this, you know, stop it. Stop it.” You know,

so yeah, I thought it summed up some of the circles I’d moved in. My husband thought it suited me more than other

things we could think of. And keep it to yourself. Why do you need to spread your nastiness? So that’s sort of what it

means to me. Alicia, I I don’t apologize for it, though. I do apologize for the state of the present website which needs

to be reboosted. Reboosted or whatever you call it. Yes,

it does. All right. Um, so Sarah would like to

know, my question for Reverend Par would be much the same as what’s already me

commented here about Christianity, paganism, and his particular beliefs. How can they sit side by side equally in

the modern world, but they’re not different beliefs. Nowadays, I talk about the Virgin Mary.

3,000 years ago in Egypt, they’d have talked about Isis. Isis was the virgin queen of heaven who stood on a crescent

moon surrounded by a halo of 12 stars. So, who are we talking about? Religion

isn’t just ideas in the head. Religion isn’t an ideology. Modern pagans sadly are slipping into

that catchment area, which is very sad. It’s very annoying.

Well, it’s it’s saddening uh cuz I I had more hope actually from in the modern pagan

community than I did with liberal Catholicism, which is also stuck in its ways in some way. You know it are you

dealing with living living archetypes and living energies or are you or have you got a couple of ideas in your head?

If there are only ideas in your head, the guy next to you will have different ideas in your head and there’s a clash

but neither of you embrace religion. Are these energies talking to you? Are they

speaking to you? Are you dialoguing with them? As Carl Young would have said, are you interacting with them in your

dreams? Um I don’t see a contradiction. I see a

continuous tradition in the religious imagination of western

humanity from the earliest days of Greece up to now. I see different manifestations of that religious

imagination, but I can’t really see any overarching difference. I mean, and that

would include curiously the most rampant Presbyterian. I mean, so what are we

looking at there? You know, you’ve got my exotic side of Catholicism, you know, smells, bells, statues, very Hindu. And

what have you got in the Presbyterian? You’ve got sort of the white walls, the polish wood. Very zen. Very zen. So, we

would Well, I can you I can see why they do that. You know, we prefer this exotic,

you know, enchantment. I do. Yeah. Yeah. The Zen people say, “Well, no, you know, you you’ve got to look back in yourself.

Stop looking at all that. It’s beautiful. We know. But you got to look back at yourself. So I can understand all of that as I say.

It’s a nice way to think about it. Well, I mean, so for me, these are different manifestations of the same

type of religious imagination. Um, is that universal? I suppose Yianism is

universal. I don’t know. I suspect not. I did I’ve spent a lot of time in Central Asia. That’s the bit between

Turkey and China, which nobody talks about. The people are devastatingly beautiful. They’ve got sort of these

bronze skins like the like the Turkish people, but they’ve got Chinese delicate features, a beautiful or they know it

too. I spent a lot of time over there because that’s one of my passions. They don’t have a distinction between

sensuality and spirituality. It’s not in their culture. Now, that’s one of the main stays, one of the main problems of

the West that has never arisen in their culture. Their cultures are openly

central Asian animistic. They’re all Muslim nowadays, of course. So what they originally would have said were tribal

gods I notice are now names of Allah. None of the imams locally no one backs

an eyelid. You know for instance the last time I was in central Asia I always try and hide the fact I’m a minister

because the minute you say in a Muslim country oh David’s into that. Can you say prayers after supper? Oh somebody

needs to talk to you now. They’re going they’re feeling depressed. Never say you’re a minister in a Muslim country.

Your life is no longer your own. Everybody wants a piece of the action, including the imams. Where what have we

got in common? What have we not got in common? So, you know, you just try and avoid that. It’s great fun, but

draining. Um, yeah, as I say, that’s an example though I’d like to I need to spend a lot more time there of a

religious imagination. You know, we’re all human at the end of the day, but built on slightly different

cultural premises and built on different sensations of the environment. they they

have got a different way of dialoguing with the environment and therefore they would use the type of vocabulary that we

didn’t because our environment is different to theirs. So you know that needs exploring but as I say you know long-winded again sorry

you know for me there isn’t really uh this monumental difference. Great lovely like that. Okay so Haley

we’ll take a slightly different direction now from Haley. So I would love to hear any thoughts around

different ways in which people nearing the end of their life and their families can be honored and supported as we near

the transition and the crossover particularly in the balance between Catholic culture and Christian culture

and the avoidance guilt shame and fear that can come up from an organized religious upbringing surrounding death

and the perceived final resting place of the soul. So, a big one from Haley. Absolutely great question. That is an

abs great question. I don’t um obviously like most ministers, I’ve got a bit of

counseling training because that just goes with the the profile. Um I’d like to do a lot more of that. I’m very

interested in Carl Rogers um for a number of reasons. It’s fascinating, fascinating guy. Um I noticed most of

the people most of the ministers I know in that area of pastoral work in the hospices in the hospitals

uh drop instantly drop these distinctions. I mean you’re dealing with somebody’s end. You don’t want somebody

turning up a bed ramming home doctrinal points and forcing them to yeah you’re a

sinner. You know this inappropriate and it’s not the calling. It’s not what any professional pastor should do. Most of

the ones I met were caring and universalist. They drew from elements

everywhere to make the passing over as gentle and as understandable as could be to the person

who was passing over. I’m certain there are ministers out there that don’t believe that. But I I wonder if they are

the ones in theospaces and the care homes and the the hospitals because that’s nearly universal. I’ve never met

really anybody that wants to Bible thump during the last couple of hours of somebody. I’ve never met that. I mean,

you’d be a monster. You wouldn’t be a minister. You’d be a monster. Um I remember my first uh uh uh

cremation um an older shop many years ago. Of course, the recipient was already dead or they wouldn’t be

cremated. Um where I was so nervous it was untrue. Older shop crerematorium.

They have got a tight professional professional business where you had to walk under uh the furnace and it was

awful. Oh my god, I’m now getting heated up by this furnace who’s burning somebody. So, um I managed to reduce the

entire congregation to tears which wasn’t my choice. Um apparently I said

said a few things that resonated with them. Uh I got to the bit where I had to press the committ button and everything

went into slow motion. My finger started going towards this red button and I couldn’t believe I was seeing my finger

and the red button and it was aiming that direction. I pressed it uh and the carpet started going down and the entire

room burst into tears. Um so at the front you see it at the

back you won’t see it with me thinking oh my god I’ve just reduced everybody here to tears when underneath the

furnace cuz they wanted they like the minister to be at the door of the the crerematorium to you know thank you for

coming. Yeah. At older shop went underneath the furnace I met the local vicar who said

to me fine day for it smiling and be walked past me with me thinking oh my god he is so relaxed I wish I could be

like that. Um and scuttled well it’s not scuttled. You know I got to the door as quickly as I could to make sure everyone

was okay. Um it’s an area I’ve avoided. I I I will confess that. Um, for the

simple reason I’m more interested in people with the type of behavioral or

mental health issue that’s got years ahead of them. Um, yeah. All right.

I’ve known people who didn’t have enough confidence and strength to sit up in the

morning to get out of bed and make a cup of tea. That would have been a monumental effort. They have nothing in life. They think they’re nothing in

life. Their life is over even though they’re drawing breath. Um my attitude

is that maybe ministry needs to remember more of its origins which nowadays are

called psychological. Um you know where do people think Freud got all that from?

You know you get the the analyst listening to the person with problems. That’s from the confessional

right. Um the curator of ours I can never remember his name. Jean something Bon Bon used to spend hours in the

confessional and the villagers loved him. the curios. So what do they what do people think he’s doing? If you listen

to some Romans, you get the impression he’s ramming doctrine down their throat. He wouldn’t have been in there for hours. What he’s doing is what

eventually became psychotherapy, right? He’s discussing the issue with

them. He’s offering advice and he’s giving his blessing. And that’s why it turned into this phenomena. And that’s

why really uh that all of that needs to come back. um you know therap I mean

Yung used to make a joke that you know the therapists the psych psychotherapists were the priests and

nuns of nowadays but that’s a joke but it’s a telling joke because he was ve very well read in history and he was

aware of what had happened Freud you know Freud said a very misunderstood man nowadays not

not a great friend of religion but what he was criticizing I’m not sure I’m a great friend of either um he used to

make a joke that God had to wait 2,000 years for an atheist Jew to turn up for things to start getting better. Well,

actually, if it’s confession, no, he didn’t. He didn’t have to wait 2,000 years. You know, we’ve got to recover in

church the resources that we funded out to other people

because politics and ideology got in the way. Exactly that way of thinking. This

is what we believe. It’s not like you and we’re right, you’re wrong. That all started curiously with the philosophing

it on natural science, the natural sciences. But it had unexpected side effects like now everybody has to,

you know, this is my set of beliefs, my set of ideas. That’s all that means. And I will defend them to the hilt, but

that’s not what the ancients were doing when it came to religion. And for me, it’s making unnecessary barriers and

obstacles on the longest search known to the human race. Religion is the long

search that we’re all involved in. It’s the search for the self. And what is that self ultimately? Is it the cosmic

self? Buddhism fascinates me. You’ve got to work on the basis that Shakimuni was

a bright guy. I mean, come on, Buddha. Yeah, a bright guy. Um, he never said no, there wasn’t a god. Um, he went out

of his way to avoid the question. Whoa, hang on. That’s interesting. So, one of

these young brains, one of the young young skellyywag priests, all he had to do was turn up and say, “Do you believe

in God or not?” And all Buddha had to say was, “No, there we are.” But that is not what happened. What Buddha would

always do is refer people to parables rather like Jesus and say, you know, if

a house is on fire, do I really worry about the architect? Do I really worry

about, you know, about the house and how the fire started or do I get out of the house? You know, these are much more

telling questions. I mean, put it to put it slightly more seriously, Ishbara, Ishvara, is there a cosmic self? Well,

Buddha strikes me as the sort of guy with all the artillery to be able to answer that. So, his refusal to answer

that I think is telling. I’m not saying he was a crypto Christian. I’m not saying he was a Catholic. He was

Catholic. I’m not saying he was a Catholic. What I am saying is he admits it’s the longest search in human history

and we’re all involved in it. Once we get rid of the curse of the trivial, the trivial is a modern curse and there are

various powers. This is where I get political and you tell me to shut up. the various powers and portents that

want to close down working people. I am very proudly workingass. I’m very proudly from a humble background. They

want to close us down once and for all and make sure we’re just consuming. Don’t worry about that. Go and see

another Marvel adventure movie. Oh, don’t worry about that. You know, just go on a shopping spree. And I enjoy

Marvel movies and I enjoy shopping sprees, but I don’t limit myself to those things. I limit myself to those

things. You know, there are certain vested interests. My wonderful husband

uh is doing a PhD at Glasgow University on the surveillance state we suddenly

live in. No one denies that’s what it is. I mean, he’s been doing interviews recently. Some of the MPs, scholars,

some of the things I have heard in the background, I’ve got no teeth left. I did do before the interview started are

so horrendous and so objectionable, so monstrous. I don’t know how these people

can sleep at night. But that’s the world we live in, isn’t it? You know, no, no, no. They all hate religion. Why? Because

it empowers people. You know, spirituality. What isn’t the difference between spirituality and religion to me?

I think all human beings, including the biggest atheist in the world, is a spiritual entity. Now, do I mean that

spirit is separate from bald from bodi? I have no idea. I mean that there’s that qualitative side of their nature that

interacts with the environment on a very sophisticated level. For me, religion really at its best is only the

codification of of one particular community’s understanding of what that

meant for them as an ethnic group. So I I wonder if I might ask a question about that then because you know you say

religion empowers people and I do think that religion at its best

empowers people but I have had quite an influx of folk and in my community who

have religious trauma Bible belt in America etc. And I think that mainstream religion is

becoming less popular. Yep. And there’s probably a good reason for that. In some ways, the church seems to

have lost their way. It doesn’t seem to it seems to have fallen into someone

externally. It was what it looks like to me. What it feels like to me. It it seems to have fallen into this space of

dogma and ideology and the sensed living spirit world has been stripped and it’s

all about rules and this and this way and you must feel that. I mean the amount of people that find their way to

me who have no sense of self, who have no

agency and no sovereignty is quite amazing. And I know you use the word sovereignty and it’s quite a core tenant

in Celtic mythology as well, spiritual sovereignty. So, how do you as a

priest, how do you develop that empowerment for

the people who find their way to you? And how do you think the wider church can find their way back to actually

empowering people instead of what it looks like to me ruining people’s lives? Oh my god. If you want to get me on that

side of the church, we do need a couple of weeks. You sort of took the thunder. You sort of took the thunder there. I

mean, I use the word, excuse me, I use the word religion for something more than a group of ideas. So, it’s more

than ideology. It’s more than a particular type of worldview. Religion for me would go back to the ancient use

of that that word religio, relig,

you’ve been bound to these higher energies. Um, what most of the mainstream churches are literally doing

is ideology. I mean you got to remember the church of England is a state church but it doesn’t even hide it. It is the

that body of government which is in charge of people’s spiritual needs. I mean technically every Anglican church

is a government building. Um you know and it pays revenues and it deals directly with the home office. That is

what they do. the Church of Scotland. I mean, that was meant to be a theological Bernie, but I wonder how I don’t know

enough about it to say for certain, but I wonder how different that is. So, you have a recognized group of community values and thereby you call that

religion and you will believe what we’re telling you or you’re a heretic of some sort. I mean, people have to get a

historical sense again there. There was a time when, you know, you would believe what the king believed. you know, all

this individuality that that’s only about 500 years old. You choose things, you don’t choose things. All of that’s

new. Um, you know, in the in the premedieval world coming up to half of the medieval world, the the sages would

go and try the and convince the king of various things. Eventually, the I mean, what did they base their decisions on?

Trade nine times nine times out of 10, you know, is it good for me to become a Christian? Oh my god, yes, it is. I can

now send things down the Silk Road and they can trade with me and there’s no barrier, you know. So nine times out of

10 it’s I’m sorry to reduce it all. It’s it’s commerce, it’s politics. It’s not

what it seems to be. So it’s a group of ideological standards used by a given

community to measure its own life, its own accord, its own sense of identity, its own sense of balance. Therefore, I

don’t tend to use the word religion. I I’ve got you pointed out something. I’m being a bit sloppy with that. So many

people would use that word. Um, instinctively I can’t use that word, but I’ve got to admit, yes, if we’re looking

at ideology, if we’re looking at dogma, um,

I mean, it it can at its worst destroy lives. I mean, don’t forget, I’m from

the LGBTQ plus community. I’ve seen lives destroyed. I have seen people take their lives

because of the way the church acted towards them. and they were told they were they they were guilty of

unpardonable sins in this life and they’d be damned in the next. You know,

I don’t know how any minister could could speak for the next life. I mean, there we are. But, you know, no, I mean,

what I’m not saying is born of of rosetinted glasses. I mean, remember, I’m an openly homosexual clergyman.

Therefore, I actually haven’t had a an easy rose tinted trot. It’s been quite difficult. And at first I was even

thinking of becoming a Roman and was told very uh very clearly um okay but

you have to lie all the time about your sexuality. I was told that so I decided

not to. A ministry built on lies isn’t a ministry. So yeah, the church at its worst as an organization housing

community standards, a community self-perception, community identity, if you run a foul of that identity, can

probably be the most excruciatingly violent mechanism on the earth. But that

is so people like us are beholden to say, “Hey, hey, hey, that’s not it.

That’s not it. That’s not it.” And we oppose that view. You know, I’m not saying stand up with a placard inside a

mosque, you know, or go down to the local synagogue and tie yourself to the Talmood. No, I’m not saying that. I’m

just saying, you know, or or what some people some of these young scywags are doing in Rome at the minute, standing on

top of altars and kicking down priceless candlesticks. Um, do I understand that?

Of course I do. I just disagree that that will solve anything. If anything,

it makes that community get smaller and more insular. and they’re then convinced they’re right. The powers of darkness

are attacking their ideology. They must be right. Instead of listening to challenges from people like all of us

saying, “But we disagree with you. We love you and we disagree with you.” That strikes me as much more formidable as a

challenge and we have to challenge them. I I wish more pagans went to church. I

don’t want to abandon their paganism. I want them to see the crossover. I wish

more Christians would turn up at the odd coven meeting. I mean, when I I joined Falcombrook in Clappam, I used to live

in Clappam, pure gardenerian, and it was for for thespians basically.

And you know what was their big concern after the ritual? Who’d bought the finest wine? Because they were all

thespians. Oh my god, that’s so cheap nowadays. And wasn’t that amazing? If they got a if they people

realize, you know, you’re not running around naked high on amphetamine wearing horns, there might actually be a bit

more to it than that. You know, I mean, what human beings have to do is listen to each other a bit more. Don’t come

from the position of prejudice and ideas alone. Come from the heart, not the

head. Eug Grace, the great Victorian cricketer. Any old cabbage has a head.

What God wants is a heart. And I sort of stand by that. Oh, amazing. I think David, that is a

lovely spot to finish on. That could have wrapped. Do you know what I mean? You couldn’t have wrapped

that up better. That’s impressive. That This has been a It’s an hour and a

half. Can you believe that? It’s just flown in. Flown in. Thank you. I I’ve had so many questions

answered. this um I was a bit like I wonder how this is going to go but it

went exactly how I hoped it would which is great. I think people will get a lot of um hope and love and encouragement

hopefully from this conversation and perhaps I feel like we’ll have more talkbacks. So perhaps we could do a part

two next year, wouldn’t it? I would be deeply honored. I mean I didn’t get the chance to raise something

I wanted to the presence of animism within mystical Christianity. Well, we can do it now.

It is not true that these things are just ideas. The minute we get past that, so what is animism? Animism is an

experience. It’s an experience that the environment is alive, that it’s interacting with us. Now, for

Christians, particularly uh old Catholics, liberal Catholics, Eastern Catholics, not so much uh Catholics in

the West, Roman one or two offshoot because they’re fighting different battles. They’re fighting different

battles. You know there is nothing unusual on that because we live on an angel. I mean they had the idea that

planets were angels that stars were archangels. You know there was this great chain of

being going upwards and upwards and upwards to the old glorious absolute.

Therefore they we would find it odd not to have a a Catholic type of animism.

How are we interacting with our environment on be but be you know there are ancient monoliths

um some of which are painted and some of which have strange stories around them you know one of I’m writing a play at

the moment on the witches abute if ever there was an example of misogyny my god

I mean I have I mean the the bit that got me I was this is writing David as opposed to clerical David I was I was

one of my best friends is the local white witch I don’t know where that pulls me apart from I’m very proud of my friend being the local white witch. Um

we were chatting about um kicked all that off. I mean someone had a vision of a fairy uh by no means a trivial thing.

You know the ancient knowledge religion of the fairies. I mean that that’s deep

and it means all sorts of things people don’t expect. That’s what seems to have started almost by a trigger reaction the

Presbyterians on this island into their sort of don’t talk to us. were now afraid mode of self-p protection. So,

someone had the vision of a glittering golden sparkling thing and some of the

locals didn’t like that. Now, remember our our ancients, our ancestors lived in a very different world from us. If the

apple cart is upset, they don’t necessarily know how to straighten it again. So, if all these other forces are

suddenly intruding into normal human life and the crop’s going to grow, if

they’re not, what do I do? I’ve got to feed my family, you know. Um, right. The laws of nature are now being suspended.

What do I expect to happen in my life now? When is it going to stop? Okay, it started. Great. When is it going to

stop? You know, one of the best examples of that I’ve seen recently with David Lynch in that Twin Peaks. I mean, the

third series was all guns blazing. Not only the waiting room, which is clearly

um gnostic experience. You have to go through the demonic waiting room to reach the angels of light. Wow. Now,

where on earth did he get that from? But we know where he got that from. Um, and it’s the same with these. He had that

same ancient view. Something glorious happens. And the locals are terrified,

not because they’re stupid, because they don’t have the parameters. They don’t have the map. They don’t have the

knowledge to know what happens next and how to navigate it, how to negotiate with it. and fear sets in very real and

very understandable fear. Now, if you’ve done your best to exterminate

other types of priesthood who did have that knowledge, then an imbalance starts

in the community and trouble starts. Um, you know, would would the original Vikings that went through these lands

have known something about that? Yes, they would have done and probably more than the Presbyterians. Um, therefore,

that correcting balance was gone. It’s all gone. and you know what was left of it, the stones, the runes, we don’t

discuss that. You know, we’re where we we’ve got ABCD in our head. That is what makes a Christian. We don’t want to know about all of that stuff. So, the

animistic realities are are pushed to the side. Um the the case that got me

wasn’t the ladies, wasn’t the women in the toll booth outside the castle. I mean, some of them were starved to death

um in the most brutish manner imaginable. It’s where people don’t want to get

involved. They don’t want to touch. Oh, right. I can’t. It’s like sort of that Nazi Germany thing. You know, you’re

living down the road from Achvitz. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I can’t see what’s going on over there. I’m sorry. So, that’s self-p protection

when the community starts protecting itself because they don’t know what will happen if they do get involved. You

know, uh, and unless you’re a hero, a heroin, you’re a robust person and most people are not. Uh, and that’s no

judgment on them, but you know, trouble will start. So the the case that got me was one of the girls, one of the women

left the island for 20 years and she came back and was burnt on the beach at

an impromptu stake. They burnt her on the beach before she could say anything or do anything to carry out the previous

judgment of the court. But that strikes me as coldblooded and inhuman uh by any

stretch of the imagination. Um you know, there’s a lot of nonsense talked about the witch trials. There’s a lot of stuff

that’s ignored that’s horrendous about the witch trials. You know what are we looking at mostly? We’re looking at the

arising of the female archetype. We’re looking at independent women who simply

aren’t going to be told how to live, what to do, what to say. So all of a sudden they want to,

you know, they want to express themselves. Therefore, they become more open to the environment, the animistic

influences. And that’s when the community, the local community, if it’s refusing

to let those things into the head and into the heart, then a clash comes. So, as I say, I’m writing uh my new play

will will be about that. I don’t know. We probably have to head for the hills the minute it’s finished because I do

want to stage it. Um I don’t know what the locals will think. Um they haven’t obstructed my researches. I mean,

they’ve been very helpful. But, you know, I think they’re aware that a great wrong was done. And is this one of the

ways to to try and make a right out of this terrible, terrible, terrible

um because you know what we mustn’t do as people on the edge of the mainstream. I count all of us as that. We mustn’t

just ignore the mainstream. Go away. We want nothing to do with you. There’s something called healing. We are all

being called to heal. You know, it’s our job as the as the extremity to start

bringing healing into the mainstream community, not judgment. There’s enough judgment in the world for all of us to

live a thousand years without even thinking about what anybody else is saying. Let’s listen and let’s try and

heal. Um, animism is central to other forms of Catholic stroke Christian

witness because it’s you dialoguing with the earth angel. So you go from your

local community to the saints and then to the angels. So in other words, you go from your own place, your own position

where you’re coming from to the spirit guides and then to the intelligences.

So that’s how animism fits very very neatly and nicely into liberal

Catholicism. As I say, we could go on for that for hours because it it goes on and on.

No, that sounds really interesting. That’s something you do, isn’t that? You you write plays and

Yeah. I mean, I’m sacred I think you call it sacred theater. Yeah. I’m I’m meant to be a sort of

reasonably well-known British poet. Um I for years I couldn’t understand why

poetry would get to the stage in the land of Shakespeare. Um now it’s just self-evident. That’s what you’re meant

to do. Um yeah, I mean I’ve had uh I’ve written five books in all so far. I’m

working on my my my new one at the moment as well as the play I’ve had two of my plays staged. One of which was the

grammar of witchcraft. It was premiered at the Camden French Festival and it got to the Edinburgh Fringe. Um the other

one two years ago, Women in Mayhem cuz I’m interested in the rights and the

wrongs of modern feminine consciousness when it goes too far. That’s interesting, too. Are we bringing

healing to ourselves, you know? Yes, wrongs have been done. Do we rebalance

that by doing more wrongs? I that makes no sense. No, we do not. Apart from the fact that’s called black

magic, you know, I mean, so we don’t. So, you know, that made again that what’s your next book? What you write?

What’s your book on? It’s part of my post-doal work. I’m writing on the sacred art of William Arl

who is a a visionary painter. I met him once at the first mind, body and spirit

festival down in uh down in London. Uh grumpy bastard. We got talking to his

wife anyway. Um great visionary. I mean Colin Wilson, the writer said he was one of the most accomplished and ingenious

men he’d ever met. Um speaking to him, you just know that. I mean he’s a writer, he’s a journalist, he’s a

painter. Uh I’ve got one of his scripts which I’m toying with to stage. But

yeah, I mean basically I want to say spirituality is alive and well within the arts. It doesn’t die with William

Blake. And by the way, um you know, this is an example of it in our lifetime. And

you won’t believe it. I mean uh his right Nick Arl’s uh a friend of ours who

is of course his son. Nick’s wife Tara actually can sport Joan Collins as her

mother. So, we’re trying to get Joanie along to see this play, but how old is

she now, but she’s still a phenomena. So, I’m I’m doing two things at the moment. Writing

not only about what people think they know about art and what they they they maybe they don’t realize they’re

artists, too. You know, I’ve got this thing everybody’s got a book in them. It doesn’t mean you’re Shakespeare, but

you’ve got a book in you. Everyone’s got a painting in them. It doesn’t mean you’re Picasso, but you’ve got a painting in you. You know, what are you?

Who are you? Try and start the journey and ask and ask the guides and ask the

angels and you’ll get an answer. I’ll finish up with this one. We went to Shut up, David. Shut up. We went to an

Umbanda anander ceremony just before we left London. We’re trying to get the the

priest to come up here as a visitor. That was Brazilian. So, Brazilian witchcraft and Brazilian shamanism.

And um bloody difficult to get to. And I’m sorry if the spirit is going to

speak in Portuguese, we need an interpreter. So this this wonderful ceremony started. I better not name

names cuz I don’t know how it gets back to Brazil. And we saw what can only be described as genuine channeling. I mean,

I’ve seen the other two do hilarious, but this is genuine channeling. No matter how you explain that, no matter

what you think it is, that was genuine challenging ch channeling. Um the priest

went to the front with the priestess. one one by one the congregation are called up and they’re given advice

either financial advice or business advice or dietary advice or uh you know

how you deal with your horrible neighbor who wants to kill you advice and I thought well this is decorous you know

I’ve enjoyed every single minute and to my absolute horror I got called up and the spirit decided apparently this

particular spirit who had been Brazilian but also he was half French or something he was trained by the French doctors

that were out there started addressing me in Portuguese and French and was was making all the sort of courtly

mannerisms of the day which impressed me no end and he was very worried about my

dietary dietary intake and said look you got to avoid bread you know I mean all

this sort of stuff you really got to avoid bread and we went down this checklist we had to call two interpreters in because he was speaking

so quickly and these are the food groups I need to ignore and these are the ones I had to include in my diet you not

saying anything terrible is going to happen but you know for your own sense of health you got to do this and I was asked by the spirit to go back in six

months to make the advice we did manage to do that but oh my god how professional so um you know people

animism is everywhere it’s in spiritualism it’s in spiritism it is the

force the idea the dogma it’s the insight that really needs to come back

to revitalize the churches the mosques, the synagogue, the temples, and that’s

the common language that we all have in common. That’s how we can all talk together without conversation stopping

where it shouldn’t. Couldn’t agree more, David. Couldn’t agree more.

Fantastic. Well, that’s two very good endings. Let me give you one quick third ending.

Let give you then go on. I’m still in touch with a load of very serious esotericists from down south. I

mean, I know some very serious esotericists in Holland. They they they’re given to that. The Dutch is sort

of given to that. And I’m so Yes, I’m jealous. Yes, I’m jealous. One of them’s got a a group that’s been going on for

12 years making real discoveries. I mean, heavens above. Very, very

interesting. You know, this guy’s a trained psychotherapist. He doesn’t approach these things as a

trained psychotherapist. He approaches them as as a researcher, as an experiencer. So, very jealous of that.

and the other friend of mine teaches at the College of Psychic Studies down in London. Um, so I was thinking, well, I

mean, I dipped in and dipped out of things like that. Next springtime, possibly on the spring equinox,

possibly. Possibly. We’re going to hold a circle in anyone who wants to join us

is more than welcome. We’re seeing if we’ve got access to any of the stone circles and we are going to

try and undertake our first animistic working on the island to see if we can

get those energies without being beaten to death by anybody’s Bible to see if we can get those energies working again.

You know, and what they’d say to us in a place like this because if somebody’s seen a fairy, I imagine this place is

alive with vital energies just waiting to communicate. So that that is where I

will shut up. There we are. That sounds very interesting. For anybody who doesn’t know, um David and I

were talking about this before we hit records. My dad and his family are all from but the aisle of but where David

lives now and I’m from well not from there but I’ve lived there. I still have a family there. So you never know. David

might find myself at one of your events at some point. Open invitation. We would love you to join us. Open invitation. And that’s to

everybody. Anyone who finds value in these things, no matter what your belief system, come and start a journey with us

and let’s see what happens. Magic. Well, thank you so much. I’ve had a wonderful almost couple hour and a

half. It’s been so nice. Let’s do a part two next year. I’d love to do that. I think it would be a lot of fun. I really

appreciate your time as well. Time is very, very precious. So, thank you so much, David. And thanks to everybody for

listening. And I’ll see you all soon. Bye.

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Subscribe & Review in iTunes

I’d love for you to subscribe to my podcast! I don’t want you to miss an episode. I’m adding a bunch of bonus episodes to the mix and if you’re not subscribed there’s a good chance you’ll miss out on those.

Now if you’re feeling extra loving, I would be really grateful if you left me a review over on iTunes, too. Those reviews help other people find my podcast and they’re also fun for me to go in and read. I’d love to know what your favourite part of the podcast is. Thank you!

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