SHAMANTALK
Shamanism and Witchcraft are more similar than you think with Laura Tempest Zakroff
This episode explores the profound overlaps between witchcraft and shamanism. We discuss how both paths draw from land, rhythm, and story, and why creativity and relationships matter more than strict methods.
You’ll hear how sigils, trance, drumming, and journeying all connect through the body, and why asking why is essential for any living practice.
We delve into themes of safety, boundaries, and responsibility, illustrating how witches and shamans alike utilise these as guiding principles. Ancestors, omens, guides, and symbols all find their place in this conversation, revealing the shared ground between two traditions that help us find a sense of belonging and meaning in the modern world.
Find out more about Laura’s work at lauratempestzakroff.com or follow her on Instagram at @owlkeyme.arts.
Transcript
Hey folks, nice to see you all today.I’m joined by Laura Tempest Sakroff, so you may know her as the author of Sigil.Literally weave the Liminal Anatomy of a witch, Liminal Spirits Oracle.Like there’s a big long list that I would struggle to list here.And that’s lovely for me because it’s always lovely to it’s always so nice to connect with and people with more experience in Australia than I have.
0:23
So she’s a modern traditional witch, describe yourself as, which is really interesting, an artist, a teacher.And Laura weaves together art, magic, activism and weaves ways that I, I see have inspired people over the world, which is really cool.And she’s got these new offerings on the way out that we’re going to talk about, which is order called, which is Ally Oracle in January, which looks amazing.0:42
And our new book, Taro by 10 Past in February, which looks really good as well.Now, one of the reasons I invited Laura today is because we teach together at the gathering of the witches every year, which is that one of the online event, I only do one of those kind of summary type things a year.And it’s it’s the gathering of the witches.0:59
So I also wanted to talk about that and why I would be on something called the Gathering of the Witches, I suppose, but also to bring Laura’s voice here for us so that we can hear about, you know, her wisdom and our creativity and our and our witchcraft.And frankly, it’s always a delight to chat with like a fellow author, a fellow magical soul.1:20
Welcome, Laura.Thank you.Thanks so much for having me.It’s been an I’ve had an interest in dialogue with witchcraft in my life.It’s not something I’ve necessarily been drawn to, but what half what has happened over the years for me is that I’ve created a practice that I find my way in through shamanism.1:40
But now a lot of my personal practice involves folk magic, Scottish folk magic, very simple spells.I don’t use that word.But what I can see is there’s a very clear and distinct overlap between what I do and what other people do.Other people in the witchcraft community, which has been a real joy because it opened up a whole new area of learning for me and a connection which has been which has been really great.2:04
What, what I’m always curious about is how you landed where you are.Like, how did you, how did you end up as a magical author and teacher and magical soul?Give us a wee bit of background.OK, it’s like the back story of your.2:21
Origin story exactly.I feel like it started when I was little and my my father, my grandfather built a little tiny house for me and I would just spend all my time out in the backyard, like gathering plants and sticks and and being already being a little witch in the woods.You know, it’s like, yeah, I come from a a bit of a unconventional background.2:43
Here in the US we have a lot of mix, people coming from very different origins and places.Even though I was raised Catholic, my father’s Jewish, and I was very much aware that there were other forms of spirituality out there and connecting to more than just what’s in a book.3:05
You know, more than this is this is what you need to believe.I’m like, but what about, you know, further representation of gender and spirituality?And why can’t I be up at the altar and doing the things I was very, very spiritual child and being told that I could not be at the altar was did not sit well as a six year old.3:23
Like so, you know, so that was very, very early on and spending this time in nature.But it wasn’t until I was in my early teens, about 14 or so, that I discovered that there were actual other living practices out there besides, you know, like the big three.3:44
And that set me on the path and, you know, eventually reading Drawing Down the Moon by Marco Adler.And by the time I’d set off to college, I was already investigating different Pagan groups that were in the New England area.And there you go.So a long time for you then, like since you were like, really quite young.4:00
So it’s not like something you discuss.Because for me, I was a late Blue Marshall.We say, yeah, I wasn’t.It wasn’t until I was in my early 30s that I was like, my dad died and I was like, it’s got to be more of life than what I’m currently experiencing.4:15
There has to be something else.And I’ll always knew that there probably was, you know, but I am finding a framework or a way to a way and was quite challenging.So that’s a lot of the work I do now is I support people to find their way into magic and whatever label you end up using doesn’t really matter.4:30
So for me, I’m like, right, So you’re like, I have a lot of people in, in my community and my membership and places who also have mixed origins or who are, well, their language, not mine, escaping religion or having to heal from a childhood of religion.4:46
And sometimes people find their way to Native American culture or other kind of like spiritual land based practices, but then they find not always, you’re not always not welcome in those circles.I think people with white, white ancestry, but often you’ll find, you know, you’re often not welcome for various reasons and most of them good.5:08
So then people come over here or they’re like, oh, wait, OK, so I’m white European, where’s my lineage?Like what do I look for?So they’ll find their way here.And then actually some people here in Britain are very close minded about being open and welcoming folk with a European ancestry into their practices.5:27
And I have never felt like that.I’m like, where they supposed to go?Like if you can’t, if you can’t be in America connecting with land based practices there.And if you come over here, you’re not welcome here where you meant to go.I don’t, I’ve just, it just never landed and it’s never sat right with me.So I’m always very much of the opinion that the practices that I teach and connect, whether are open.5:48
We, we in Britain, we don’t have A and we don’t have elders.We don’t have people to decide what’s open and closed.And it’s folk magics for the folks, for everyone.So that’s kind of the way that I teach and work.And I’m curious if you guys over there in New England have like conversations around that or like what’s your take on it?6:08
Yeah, I like to say that the the land remembers everyone and everything that has ever walked or flown or crawled across it, right.And we are always the continuing part of that story.Land is is ancient.And it’s important to know those stories.6:24
So to know what happened here 5000 years ago, 1000 years ago, 500 years ago, but also 50 years go because the land is a part of that story.And we are part of the land.We eat from the land.We drink from the land.Our bodies are made from that.Particularly here in the US, Yeah, where people feel very lost right there, especially in the 90s where it’s like, it’s from over there.6:47
You know, the magic’s over there.Like it’s like you’re following this carrot.It’s over there.Like.But you were here.You.You were here right now.And in order to be connected to your practice, you need to be connected to where you are.Even if you’re, you know, travelling or you’re moving somewhere, you’re going to be in college for four years, whatever.7:07
It’s like you need to be able to connect with that land because it’s a part or it’s going to become a part of you and you’re becoming a part of its story.So it’s about respect and relationship with those stories.I’ve come before, but realizing that you are continuation of that story.I love that.7:24
That’s like really special, isn’t it?So I think sometimes people miss the difference between creating your own ceremony and your own connection on the land that you love versus copying or taking from other places.We are like in, right?We are innately creative creatures like, and we all have the capacity to connect with the divine or God or whatever it is, the universe or whatever it is that whatever the label is, when nobody’s arguing that it exists, we’re all just arguing about what we call it.7:52
So that like creative spark is really important.It sounds to me like in witchcraft, the same as in the work that I do, which would be Celtic spirituality or Celtic shamanism.It’s we’re not trying to, for me, the way that I like interact with it.I’m not trying to recreate the past.8:09
I’m not trying to do that.If I was, I’d be getting into some pretty questionable practices, not going to lie.So you know, I, you know, I do, I am creative.I do like to know the root of the things that work with and I do like to know where things come from.But ultimately, as a human being with a set of values and a brain in my head and A and a connection to spirit, I can feel and decide where as I should and would like to go with my spiritual path.8:36
Is that similar for you guys?Yes, I call myself a modern traditional witch because it’s a balance of what are the traditions that we’ve come from, like to know the folklore and to know the practices of the land that also our ancestors, wherever they are from and to know again, to know those stories.8:53
But we’re living where we’re living right now in this modern society.And so we need to alter that practice for who we are today to connect, to really know who we are and where we’re going and to also ask why.Like there are a lot of traditions that say this is, this is here, it is, this is how it’s supposed to be.9:11
And don’t deviate from this book or how you’re supposed to lay out your altar or how you’re supposed to do this right without telling you why.If we’re doing something, it’s often because there is a why.But if you don’t teach people the why, then they don’t understand the depth of the practice and what’s important to it.9:28
And there’s also the the realities like as a as an artist, as also I’m a dancer.I’ve studied folkloric dances from all around the world and human beings have similar solutions that we’re going to see that again and again, you know, whether it’s parallel miss the idea of parallel miss.9:45
But when I’m looking at trans dances, which has been one of my, my favorite things to explore is look, we’re using this particular rhythm again here and here and here in these different places.And we’re using this particular movement to enhance or to bring about trance.It’s because we have bodies and those bodies don’t change that much, right?10:02
Like the gravity is going to be the same on the whole planet.The landscape might change, the stories behind the dance might change, but we still are coming to the same rhythms and movements and energy and to realize that, yeah, we have those braids, right?10:18
They’re going to they’re going to come to very similar solutions.And some people like, this is only done there.I’m like, yes, there are a few things that are only done in one spot because of very unique environmental circumstances or historical things that have happened.But for a whole, we’re often going to come to those same solutions.10:36
And we’re also going to reinvent the wheel again and again too.So it’s like just relax a little bit about understanding that we’re often going to come to similar solutions, not to say go and copy things, but it’s the inevitable solution is often very similar.10:53
Oh, I like that.Similar solutions.I’m going to write that down to make steal that Laura.I like it.It’s great.Well, isn’t it true though?And there’s a that just speaks to the fact that no matter where you go in the world, there are similar practices and there’s rhythm.11:12
Well, for me it would be the drum, right?So I use the drum and rattles and various things that I have linering and that’s what I use for my trans state.And I remember first getting into shamanism many years ago and being told you have to beat between like sex and whatever hairs for the blah, blah, blah, the brain.11:32
And I’ll be like, right, OK, so I’m drumming away at the speed and I’m like, Oh my God, fast too fast.I was like, no, no, absolutely not.So then I just, I thought I’ll just connect with the spirit of my drum.So I did that and I just learned the spirit of my drum and journeyed with her and connected with her and and built a relationship with the vibration that it created and the movement in my body and the way that I felt when I played it.11:53
And that was more powerful than any.You’re saying any book that gives you the prescription or the method?Not a very method based teacher of to say, Laura, I’m not.I think, don’t you think that methods are really great when you first start out?It’s really great, right?12:08
To have like the step by step because sometimes you’re like, no idea, we have to even begin with this.But then to find your confidence with that and find your own spirit with it and then begin to become creative.So for me, I’ve got like quite quite firm, like safe guiding principles for the work that I do.12:29
I think there’s certain things that is just sensible to do when you’re working in the magic field, but you know, being too method based and prescriptive tends to take the magic away pretty quickly.Yes, and also with our society on top of that is people almost expect to be spoon fed, right.12:45
They’re like, just just tell me what I’m supposed to do.That doesn’t prepare you for what you’re when you’re out in the wild world, you’re actually needing to do something is there isn’t going to be something that pops up and like, Hey, here’s your little list of things you’re supposed to follow and say these things like you have to listen.13:02
You have to be able to think on your feet or think, think on your head, if you will, from the heart.I I’m a big fan, very neuro spicy.So I like to create systems, but the systems are really gentle frameworks of like, have you thought about these things?13:18
But how do they pertain to you?So in like say we, the Lima law talk about rights, which is your roots, your inspiration, time, your environment and what I call star.And that’s going to be depend on each individual.It’s not going to say you have to follow this lunar schedule, this solar schedule, and that’s how you’re going to be a witch.13:36
It’s like you’re going to be a witch when you figure out what solar schedule works for you and what lunar schedule works for you and how does that work into your personal life?That’s the difference.Love it.I love it.Yes, Yes.Yes.13:52
Yes.Yes.Yes.And then one of the things I don’t know much about is I’m going to segue that I’m going to ask you about sigil, right.Sigils.I don’t know much about sigils.I know that they’re say what I know, which is nothing.There’s shapes that you draw and they have magic attached to them for some reason.14:08
And I have sigils.I have a big sigil here on my body, which is what I wouldn’t have called it, but as like tattooed.So that’s what that is.I know what it means for me and I created it and I had it like my husband tattooed it on me and I would never have called it that, but I didn’t have a name for that.14:27
So I’m like, oh, interested when the word social came up and you, you, you teach about that.Not only do you have books on it, but you also teach on it at the gathering of the shamans.And I’m going to, I didn’t meet your class last year because I was, it was at the, it was in the middle of the night for me.Yeah, I was quite late, but I’m, I’m hoping to get the I think it’s probably late for me in Scotland this year, but I’m hoping to get the replay.14:48
Anyway, I digress.The point is that what I’d really would like to hear from you, for myself and probably my listeners as well, who maybe aren’t in the witchcraft field necessarily, but more in this sort of Celtic shamanic field, I don’t talk about such.I don’t need anyone else talking about it.15:06
What does it mean?Why do we use that?What’s the point?They don’t give us the like, give us the low down of the art of sigil witchcraft.The the quick and dirty is essentially a sigil, is a mark, a shape symbol that has been created by human beings that is believed to have magical properties.15:31
Yeah, your symbol or shape created by human beings, which is an important part of it, right.And that’s drawn, etched, danced, you know, however it’s created by human beings, the belief that has magical properties, which covers a wide range of things and traditions that we’ve been doing.15:50
I would say going back to The Cave paintings, you know, going to 250,000 years ago, you know, at the moment when we start to, to tell ourselves stories and engage in art and use it to connect to our environment and the scene and the unseen worlds essentially.And so that has developed into a whole array of practices in modern paganism and witchcraft that tends to be very western of cult based.16:14
So people tend to think when they first hear about sigils, or at least it has been for a while.It’s changing, which I’m very excited about is you tend to think of the grimoire traditions and you know, the these very set symbols that used to, to conjure in or command something, which is one way, it’s one way or one practice.16:35
And there’s the chaos magic approach to as well.And in creating little charts and such for my, my approach, the situatory method is tapping into the rhythm of the universe that when you observe the world around you, and whether you’re looking at this magically or scientifically, the world is made of shapes.16:55
It’s made of shapes and rhythms and patterns.It’s a, you know, the math describes the rhythms of the universe.And so when you look at there, it’s circles and squares and spirals and stars and all of these things.And we have these universal symbols that culturally across the planet that we have been using.17:13
And when we put our intention into that, when we think about how do I solve this?How do I create a key essentially to describe what it is that I want to unlock, then to me that’s crafting A sigil.So it’s like your use of that could be anything though, that you’re looking to.17:31
So are you connecting to spirit and ancestor A deity?Are you looking to solve a problem with magic, right prosperity, look protection.So there’s anything that you might light a candle for, you could actually create a central for.Interesting.17:48
One of the words that you use there, there’s two things you said there that I also don’t know what you’re talking about.One of them is a grimoire.I’ve heard of it.I don’t know what it is.Is that like a book that like you just sort of make your way through and it’s like, is it like method and it’s best for this?Is that the idea?Yeah, the the grimoire is, it comes from friends for grammar.18:06
So it’s a book of a book of spells, a book of rituals.So especially in like ceremonial magic, you know, like the keys of Solomon and different grimoires from that of Grippas.It’s again, it’s like very, very Western occultism of taking especially from, from, from Asia and what we call the Middle East.18:27
But it’s more of that whole area through North Africa and the Mediterranean area, deciphered and changed and put into grimoires in the historical sense.But in modern witchcraft, we just think of it as a book of spells, so anybody can write a grimoire.18:45
Oh, OK.So it’s not like one book like the Bible, it’s like.No, and there there are published ones, you know, such as like the different the magical books from Agrippa.But I think people might often use Book of Shadows, which is the term that Gerald Gardner of, you know, one of the fathers of of modern witchcraft and Wicca coins taking from a different source as well.19:10
But it’s.Like a union thing, right?It’s like Shadow is like, yeah, right, OK.Yeah, yeah, it’s like whatever you call it, it’s your, it’s your notebook, right?It tends to be your notebook, but it’s depending on a tradition.A tradition might hand down a specific book of rituals and spells.I reference that.So it’s that interesting balance between what is oral tradition and folklore and the stories that we pass on and versus recorded them and how important those are and how much you get to add your voice to it as well.19:38
It sounds like you’re a fan of like adding your voice.I like, I like to don’t you can’t tell me what to do.Like tell me why first.Why do I have to do them that I’m that annoying person?Tell me why.Yeah, yeah, yeah.All right.OK, cool.19:54
So I’m just imagining a time where I had like a group.And we like made, we like, sorry, let me.So what do we do?We like journeyed.20:09
So we do shamanic journeys.I don’t know if you do like hedge, which they don’t know if that’s like they say hedge, right?There’s like equivalents.But we do like a shamanic journey.We connect with our guides and we asked for a symbol collectively And it was like, wasn’t many of it was like 5 of us.And we all got a very similar symbol, which was really cool in the same journey.20:26
And then we were all like guided to like make this symbol on the earth with our body.So we’re all like lion in the shape on the air.And to me, that was like land.That was like a land healing.I would call that land healing.20:42
But that seems to me like what?That, you know, the taking that step further, that would have been as creating a sigil.Yeah.Because.Amazing.Unlocking, you know what is it what you’re trying to make that connection.You’re doing something that influences your cells and the world around you.21:00
So yeah, using the body, that’s the thing.That’s like, that’s what essential is.It connects to the body in some sort of way to connect to the other worlds around us.And what would you say, how would how important because I see that you talk about it a lot.21:15
So that’s go through your leg, social media, how to look and you do talk about Sigil was a lot.Hey, where do you play Sigil Witchery and the landscape of witchcraft?Like how important is it?Would you say?Well.For me personally, as an artist, I say that art is my magic, right?21:31
That’s my form of spellcraft or one of my primary forms of spellcraft is to connect the shapes and images and visualization around us because it, it taps into a part of our brain that words often don’t touch, right?The animalistic part of ourselves, the fetch energy as well as the the higher aspect of ourselves, right, connects with that.21:52
And so for my practice, it’s fairly important.And I don’t go around like I have to go create a decision for that to solve a lot of my, my, what I’m trying to, to tap into.But when I sit down to make art, the lines and the patterns and the colors and the shapes are what brings the art into being.22:13
And so for my practice, it’s really important.And I think as something that doesn’t require you to do anything more than have have your body right or a piece of paper and a pen that you don’t need things right.22:30
They get off and asked and someone just asked like, what kind of which kit do I need to make you?You don’t, you don’t need, you don’t need anything.You know, probably what anything you might possibly need is already in your house or is your body.So understanding social magic instead of being like, I must, you know, I love this stuff.22:50
Like, don’t get me wrong, I love, I love the oils and their herbs And you know, I read a book on cultures.I love cultures.I love stuff, right?It’s like there’s there’s a pie.This is my this is my studio.So this is where all the art happens.I love, I love stuff, my little collecting little things, but when it comes to magic, I don’t need anything else to bring what I need into being and to connect with those things.23:18
I just need to be a body.That’s our experience, right?To be an embodied spirit and connect to the world.That’s why we’re possibly.That’s why we’re here.I think so.Yeah, for sure.Yeah.So.Makes sense.Yeah.Being able to pull something out of your pocket that just requires you instead of a stack of books and expensive supplies and crystals And like those things are nice but you can just do with just you for.23:44
Sure.So if someone was to come to you and be like, oh, here I’m worried that I’m not going to get it right.I’m worried I’m going to get this wrong.What would you say?So you get it wrong.That’s how we learn.I always say, what is what is the worst that can happen outside of safety things, right.24:01
So, so Malcolm, the Cauldron book, there’s a lot of fire safety in there.And my editor’s like, do you, do you really need all this fire safety?I’m like, for every incident there was, there was something, there was something that happened or I observed.That is the reason why you have this.So outside of health and safety, the thing about working metaphysics and magic and, and with the spiritual realm is you’re going, you’re going to screw up, you’re going to fuck things up.24:28
But as long as it doesn’t, my students really talk about why do we create sacred space?Why might you cast a circle?What, what order you call elements into which directions you’re facing when you put those together?Like, no, when you’re doing it within a group, it’s for the group consciousness.24:45
We do ritual to connect with ourselves and each other and the world around us from there, but when we’re doing it together, it’s for the communal experience 1st and then from there.So what if you accidentally called air instead of fire?First of all, they’re already present.The elements are present within us.It’s an idea, it’s a concept.25:01
Unless you’re doing something to insult, to disrespect the forces, the energies and the relationships you have in the world, then you might as well try it and see, because it’s an experimental and experiential path.And you, you don’t go far unless you take a step, Yeah.25:19
And drop.And also the one of the things I talk about as well as like the, the spirits, they hear your heart, you know, if you’re like, your intention is good and you’re doing your best, like that’s fine, right?They’re like, we got you, we got you.This is all good.It’s when there’s like maybe other energies that you’re bringing, whether you’re aware of it or not.25:38
Everybody’s aware of it, but things can get a little bit muddy sometimes.What’s your take on them?Spiritual safety?I’m a big fan of spiritual safety.I have to say.I’m like have sex.Guiding principles say practice for when people do their journey work or I’m always like, you know, you’re not journeying for anyone else, but they can say and like, I’ve got this whole thing that I talk about.25:58
And I find like I find myself occasionally at odds with my witchcraft friends who have many of one of them being around like, you know, this idea of hexes and returning things.And I’m on I’m in the I try and stay in the for me of me by me area, which doesn’t always make me popular when people are asking how they get revenge or like when they’re like really angry, right things.26:26
It doesn’t make me very popular, but I’m like for me, I think that takes people into into an area where can be hard to return from.And when you do get back in a different person, it’s like not, it’s not a good area to be in.So I have a lot to say about spiritual safety.I wonder what what you’ve got to say about it from your side.26:41
I have a somewhat unconventional threefold law, which is that everything you do effects you mind, body and spirit.There’s going to be an influence.So whether you do it for with a good intention, with a bad intention, with what, what is, you know, I don’t look at magic or the force of the world as being something that could be good or evil because I have seen healing work do damage, right?27:04
I’m doing this for healing and I’ve seen painful work do amazing healing work.So it’s like the we get caught up in the words rather than where what is the intent?What is the result that we want of re working through the process, you know, for for general safety and hygiene.27:27
Like it’s understandings like what how do how do I protect things?What is a protection?Knowing that we have various levels of what is permeable and protected personal and communal spaces.I think it’s very important to give folks those guidelines because especially if you’re coming from a more traditional religious background, right?27:47
There’s like it’s not even, it’s not even discussed or whatever is considered wrong is we won’t go there.That’s a whole.That’s a whole.Yeah.It’s too early here to drink, but understanding that sometimes you know setting boundaries is hygienic process as well.28:10
My God, everybody, all of the people who know me who listen to this are going to be laughing and probably cheating a little bit because like literally boundaries.I talk about it at least once a day, like always talking about boundaries.And I think people are going to be laughing right now thinking, oh, this pair are going to be like firm friends after.28:26
That’s just that one Zen.And so I do continue, but I got quite excited to continue on the subject of boundaries, Laura.So thinking about personal spate, your own sovereignty, right connection, your relationships we should have, whether it is someone you have a physical relationship or a metaphysical or spiritual relationship.28:46
Boundaries are important.Understanding what is that relationship like?How do you want to maintain it?What is a healthy relationship as well?A lot of people come into witchcraft where they just want to replace out sky daddy for earth Mama.Don’t evaluate the context of that relationship.29:05
And so you get so many people who are like, no, the goddess is angry at me.I’m like, she’s not your Mama.Like, like it’s, it’s not, it’s like no, stop, stop thinking in inventional deity terms for absolutely everything because they’re on a leather level of existence.29:25
So that’s your own issues.How about we deal with that?That’s also part of the hygiene and the boundaries is, is that self-awareness?I mean, people call it shadow work.I feel like, call it being like, know thyself, know what’s going on what, what are the good things that you are capable of?29:41
What are the things you have to work on?That’s an ongoing process because it’s not like, oh, you’re going to reach one place where you’re pure and ascended and everything’s perfect.Like we’re human beings.We will continue to fuck up and do do new and interesting things.Just that’s just the nature of it, of living.29:58
So yeah, that that grace, I would say that’s also part of safety is having some grace in for yourself and realize that if you screw something up, it’s you’re not a bad person automatically or not a bad witch.30:14
And I like saying to people, are you good with your bad?I’m like, I’m an effective witch.So I go for it.Is it is it effective?Is it doing something?Yes.Yes.Oh, yes, I’m an effective witch.I love that.Oh, my word.That’s so cool.All right, so just by talking, just talking to you, not knowing you very well or knowing of you before this, I’m quite excited because I’m hearing like very similar values, but what I’m hearing as I’m hearing you telling me them from a different perspective.30:44
So you’re like seeing you’re saying that you teach similar things to me, that you have this like different like doorway and to what it is that we teach, which I love.I love that.And one of the things that I did want to ask you about was how you create your written word, right?31:03
So I one week, one weekend it’s there and I’ve got another One Cup, yay, 1 coming in January.Yay, which is great all day.The the wheel of the year, Celtic wheel of the year, if anybody’s interested.But surely odd guys less and all know that.And then I’ve just seen my third book contract.31:21
I haven’t started it yet.So what I’m always interested in hearing from someone who’s like Oracle deck.It’s got that’s like huge body of work and the way that you express yourself, I’m finding really inspiring as well.So I’m wondering what’s your process, Laura?31:36
Like how do you decide what you’re going to write about as it like divine, because I get I just get either AI get told by my publisher, Let’s be honest about a book that they want and you can say yes or no.And then the last one I’m like, no, I need to write a book on this.This is like flooding me and I can’t, I need to get it out of me.31:55
So I’m wondering what your process is both with a book and an Oracle deck because I’m not done an Oracle deck.So I’m wondering, I’m wondering like, are those similar processes?Like what you know, is it different?Because like obviously Oracle, you’re an artist.Did you do your own artist, do your own art, or did you find someone else like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?32:12
I’m curious and all the things you’d like to tell me.So when it comes to the the majority of my books, so we the liminals digital tree and Adam Abel witch vigil alchemy.Those those things I look at as problem solving.I see a need in the community that, you know, as I’m teaching out in the world and people are struggling with and that that goes into my brain of like, how do I help people if I’m uniquely qualified?32:35
Because again, it’s like, I don’t be like, I see that problem, but I know nothing about it.So let me go fix it.Like no, it’s like the thing that I’m this is my wheelhouse.Let me, you know, share that because when I’m teaching and people go, Oh, this helped me so much.It’s clarified.It’s like you should, you should write a book.I hate the should but.32:51
Yeah, right.But that’s the things like sigil witchery came about because I was doing a class called Visual.It was called Visual Alchemy back in the day, which is about the intersection of art and magic.And someone was looking at one of my paintings because I was show like throughout history.And then because, you know, like, apparently it’s good branding to also talk about how art and magic intersect in my own work.33:11
They’re like, what’s that thing over there?And I’m like, well, it’s a sigil.And they’re like, doesn’t look like sigil I’ve ever seen before.Like, well, something that I’ve been intuitively doing for, for decades and they’re like, what’s cool?How do you do it?Like I’ll have to get back to you on that.33:27
Because again, when it’s an intuitive process, I haven’t, you know, like I’m telling the story in my own head, but I’m like, I don’t know how it works for the world outside of my own head.So I had to solve that right to be able to be like, how do I, how do I break this down?What’s going on in my head and then put it out into the world and and you know now like, you know, 50,000 books later and and Oracle deck as well.33:51
It’s working for people in ways that they’re like this makes so much more sense.So that’s that’s the real I’m a teacher, right.That’s that’s kind of the thing that’s really excited the teacher and the commuter.I’m also in Gemini.This explains everything I have information.Let me give you some so that that feeds into the really the majority of my work is have an idea to to to solve a problem.34:15
And the Oracle decks are that very, very specifically for years people tell like, oh, your art would be a beautiful tarot deck.You should just take all these paintings and put them into an Oracle deck and I.I.It doesn’t, it doesn’t work that way.That doesn’t make sense to me because those were not created to go together to become something.34:33
So the first Oracle deck I created the liminal Spirits Oracle, I was doing a series of paintings that were tapping into the spirits of plants and animals.And it was just a fun little series that I was doing for an event coming up.And I’m like, I have these old pieces of wood.Let me let me do the mushroom spirit and the sheep spirit and the foxglove spirit.34:51
And I had so much fun.I was like this, this could be a thing.And I was like, well, what if it’s a deck that helps people connect to spirits of place and animals and plants and such around them, and they can use it to connect to the right system that I talked about.35:08
And we have the liminal.So they connect to the world around them.Because people are so, so much in their heads that they’re not realizing that there are so many modes of communication that happen around them.So the liminal spirits solves that problem.It’s something I got excited about for that little bit of inspiration of working with these spirits.35:26
And then when I made that art, that’s, that was two weeks solid.People like you made that deck in two weeks.Like I made the art in two weeks, which was me in my studio communing with the spirits and would not recommend it for most people.Like my partner comes in as like, would you like some tea and then backs back out, You know, like when you use a cookie and backs that like it’s, you know, and it’s all like it’s I’m not one of those people who are like, let me just talk to this spirit one day and then I’ll do another one another way.35:54
Like hell has to be for a whole system.It has to be together.Yeah.So a little obsessive, but that’s that’s how the rest of the the decks have gone so far, such as like the most recently the sigil Witcher Oracle is having taught this, you know, class now to thousands of people all over the world as I recognize that people go, but I don’t know any symbols or shapes like, but you do.36:16
And let me help you with this so that you can pull cards to have this experience, but you can also use it for meditation and movement and artistic exploration.So that’s it.I like to solve problems.I love that I haven’t really thought about whether or not I would do an Oracle deck.36:36
I feel like people have mentioned it.That’s an interesting way to think about that because I like A1 system is done together and I feel, I really feel the resonance so that I’m going to put them in a back pocket and then not a greeter and my second-half some myself like a jump time that I could like, Yeah.36:53
And they thought basically that.So when you create something that’s an Oracle deck to you that that’s like one soul 1 spare that you’re busting essentially and it all comes together.I love that.And then what about your new book as well?Title by 10 past.Let’s talk about that.So title is something we’ve not touched on.37:10
That’s another thing I don’t know much about.So I don’t do well with lots of things I have to remember.So for me, title was always a bit overwhelming and but too much.But I do love it and I love it when I see people.I’ve been, you know, my my brothers Taro leader and I have friends who use the title and one of my best friends actually occasionally comes in and does like some title workshops for me.37:34
And I love it.I love listening to people talk about it and like the different energies that people bring to this like deck.And not only do people use the imagery and the traditions of the deck, but they also, I watch different people draw down different intuition and like use it in different ways.37:51
And a way I’ve seen this guy wants who does like title storytelling.So he just like pulls these cabs and like this big sea shape and like tells these stories about my life.And I’m like, oh, dude, that was actually like scarily accurate and very helpful.I’m seeing like, and then obviously other kind of traditional ways.38:10
So what’s your book?What, like what what do people get from this?What I’m sure is a very unique view is what I’m getting.It’s what I’m saying and tell me about it.So terrible type.This is my approach to the TRO, which has been influenced by 30 years of of dance and art and witchcraft, etcetera, and how I I see how I see the cards.38:36
And I am also not one of those, you know, let me go memorize like and not about, you know, getting getting super, you know, into to that.But as you mentioned the the gentleman who’s telling stories with the TRO, they’re illustrations.38:53
It’s art.So you have the positions that bodies are in, you have the colors that are used, you have the numbers that are assigned to these cards.And initially one of the working titles was Terra by number because not necessarily numerology, because I feel like that’s a very set thing that people tend to think of of that.39:12
But as an artist, when I look at the number 4, for example, right?So as also as a dancer, so 4 is often a square rectangle, right?And that’s a foundational brick.It’s like a brick, right?It’s like a brick or a box.39:27
It’s very sturdy.You can build things with it.And it aligns to the emperor in the Major Arcana, which is number 4.The emperor is about tradition and structure and guidelines like how do we set things up?How do we put things in order?And so how do we put the bricks together, right?How do we put that structure in?39:44
And most rhythms like we, we tend to think of especially in the Western world of like an 8A48 rhythm 1234, like we, we have two feet.So in order to go somewhere you have to add, you have to add something on to that.And then you can think of a waltz which is in the three-step which connects to the Empress.40:03
Like you can go into all of those things.So what it is is setting up?The numbers so that you can connect to the energy of the numbers and shapes.So you can look at numbers, you can look at the shapes, you can look at the movement, you can look at how it relates to the body and be able to use that to read with any tarot deck or even a deck of playing cards for that because you can go to the numbers.40:23
So it allows you like a whole wide of different ways of thinking to look at the tarot and open it up in ways that are fun and doesn’t require you to memorize every single card.So literally my problem that I was just like.I’m here to solve the.No problem, just I’m like OK well maybe that’s a bit I need.40:42
Actually I’ll be pre ordering that.Is I.For pre-order now, your book.Yeah, you can.It’s from Llewellyn.So it’s up for reorder through their their website.And I always add things to my own website like within 45 days of release because there’s always someone who was like, why is my book not here?41:00
And I’m like, it’s a pre-order.It’s not being released to here in the States.I think it’s February of 2026.OK, cool.So maybe a bit later in the UK then, which is fine.Yeah, that’s it.That’s like, I’m just, I’m just like, it’s just that we bet they’re just wolved together.41:15
Everything that you’ve just said about like teaching and solving problems, I’m like, no problem as.And you’re like my because I’m just like, yeah, I’m as if by magic.#Witchcraft.Yeah.What do you think about?I work with gates, the shamanic gates.41:32
I think that a without thinking about it too much because you know, if you get too masculine archetype, when you get too logical and too knowledge based thing, you drive yourself insane.So I don’t do that anymore just to do that.But you know, my general like idea or notion or like he lying on my guides is that is the is God or the universe or whatever that thing is that we all know what has, but we don’t necessarily have a label for it.41:56
And my guides are like the universe’s way of communicating and interacting with me in a way that I can understand and work with.I find that I build very close relationships with my guides and do recommend when I teach people to work with guides that they build relationship with the with the guys they work with, and that’s who they work with.42:15
And when you do journey, you only go with your own guides and you don’t you can meet other entities and whatever, but you need, you know, you need to be doing that through your guides.And it’s just like safety, but this idea of like connecting to a team, a spiritual team, so that I can understand the world I live in is something that’s really important to me.42:35
And also as well, we do something called omen walking, which is like, you know, you take an attention out into into the world that doesn’t have to be in nature.People.We don’t, I know that not everybody has access to like gorgeous Woodlands and, you know, fairy creatures and all that.And sometimes you’re going to say, but we’re all works the same.42:51
The intention is the intention and everything’s made of Stardust.So, you know, one of the biggest omens I was ever given was on the side of a lorry, which is like a big truck for Americans, right?So, you know, I’m like, there’s just like it’s the signs, the way that I interact with the universe, the things that happen that I don’t, can’t explain, don’t care about explain and frankly, but like really work.43:15
All of that works for me because I build a daily relationship with my guides and with the land that I live on and with the, you know, with the planet that I inhabit.How does that, especially the guide piece, how does that like sort of slot into how you work with witchcraft?43:32
Do you work with guides or familiars or what’s your sure vibe with all that?For I think it’s very similar.You know, it comes down to, yeah, the terminology.I know.So when, when I was a wee witch lit back in the day, I worked as a professional psychic tarot reader at a shop in California for a few years.43:57
And it was like, tell me about your guides.And I’m like, sorry, was I supposed to, was I supposed to have, you know, there’s a label.My guide does this and that.I’m like, I’m, I’m listening to the universe.This isn’t one specific thing for, you know, for my own personal path, but as I’ve gotten older ancestors, you know, especially like my grandparents was my was my maternal grandparents is very close to to feel them in my life in a new way once they had crossed over.44:28
As you know, that’s what I would talk about ancestor working.It’s often the direct, you know, that Direct Line as well as the spiritual line because I also look at as like something we are our own ancestors coming through, right?So there’s that energy.But yeah, it does come down to, you know, people say they they can have familiar spirits.44:47
They might refer to their cat.And it’s not necessarily cat the cat’s like asking.You’re asking a whole lot of it of a tabby cat.But I, I think if I’m in conversation with the universe and the things around me, then that is is it’s all about relationships to me, witchcraft.45:04
It’s all this existence is the relationships around us being open to listening, communicating, and some of those things and beings in existence are going to be companions for the journey, a long, long journey.And some of them are just going to be like, hey bitch, we need to have a talk about you.45:22
Yeah.What do you think about people who are always like, there’s evil spirits around me and like, oh, wait, like it doesn’t matter what you do or how you support them or what you explain, there’s always an evil spirit or an evil vest or an evil that or somebody’s trying or send these hex in May or somebody’s try to stand in horrible things by way, like what’s what do you tell people when they say that?45:41
Ones be like, here’s a mirror.Yeah, me too.But I was just like wondering what you see?I was wondering if you had like a better wave.I’m just like, well, you know.I was like, you know, perhaps look, look and see, I want to do some.45:58
It was a really big radio show.And it was like, oh, I think I, you know, all these things are going wrong in my life.And I was like, have you considered the connecting factor here to all of this is you?Perhaps it’s you.It’s you.You’re the problem.It’s generic.46:14
That’s right.Yeah.This is a consistent thing that I tend to see is, is that as people not dealing with their own that that’s come back.It’s responsibility, right?People want to blame other things rather than accepting responsibility, which considers like the it’s a major tenet in modern traditional witchcraft.46:34
It’s like know yourself, maintain balance, accept responsibility, which for so the good and the bad.And when it comes to actual unsettled spirits, let’s put it that way, right?Like my favorite things to do when I’m listening to or so when I’m making artwork is listening to paranormal podcasts, ghost stories and things like that.46:54
And especially in that genre, there’s always like, it was a demon and like, it sounds like a disgruntled land spirit because you tore up that tree.You’re right.Like it doesn’t make it evil.That makes you, you didn’t recept responsibility.You didn’t think you’re like, oh, it’s affecting the property value, so I should just RIP up this tree that’s been there, that’s been a home to so many animals and spirits and layers of things.47:18
Like that’s not a demon, that’s just someone being upset.You upset someone that doesn’t make them evil.So there’s that range, right?It’s between the you need to deal with your own shit to having like an understanding that you’re in a larger community than that which you can see.47:35
It’s more you can perceive it though.It’s just you believe the old Kelly see and touch it as the only thing that matters when it’s much bigger than that.So that’s my.Have you ever, have you ever come across anyone who you’re actually like, Oh yeah, you need some help?47:52
Reasons why I don’t know.The witch shop I love.I love all my friends who are, I call them like you are the Saints.You own a witchy, occult, metaphysical shop.You’re doing the work.I appreciate it, it is fantastic, but I know I am not equipped.48:08
It is social or do you?Often get people like coming in and being like, like dragging stuff in with them and being like help and you’re just like whoa.Yeah, there’s that, you know, there’s there’s the people who come in and like, I have to tell you how powerful I am.I once saw a thing.And they’re like, I’m like, I have no patience.48:24
I’m just like, do you want a cookie?You want it?You’re a human being.Good.Good luck.Good luck.Very good.Have some glitter.I don’t know.I can’t.I can’t.Not in a position.Yeah, like This is why I like, I make art, I teach.48:39
I don’t put myself in one location for long enough.They have like, no, sorry, I can’t.They can’t be charitable.I could tell you what I think.That’s so funny.Yeah.I mean as, isn’t it?It’s like really interesting to to like be in this sphere and around like responsibility.48:59
So there’s like, and you find it anywhere, to be honest.It’s not just in the spiritual or rich craft community, like it’s everywhere but there.But for me, I’m like, if you want to, if you’re trying to make me your parent, I’m not going to, I’m not going to do that.49:15
That’s not happening.Also the pedestal thing as well, like people are like want to put you on the pedestal.I’m like here, that’s a long way to fall.I’m no one, no thank you, like, no thank you.And that’s really interesting dance as well, because we do hold like for me as a teacher and an author, like I do hold a place of authority and I try and like use that sensibly and well, But I’m also like, please, for the love of God, like just, I’m just normal.49:41
Like I, me and my husband had this huge argument last week and I did not hand it myself very well.Like I’m, I can be an asshole, you know, and sometimes I act like I screw up or I do things that I shouldn’t.And and then I’m like, oh, then what do we do?49:57
We take responsibility and we say, oh, do you know what?I’m screwed up.I’m sorry, you know, but then I’ve got this like sense of as people appear before me and and in circle or in classes, like at the gathering of the witches, for example, there’s this energy of like, oh, what you have?50:18
I want that and it’s going to fix me and everything’s going to be fine.And I’m like, that’s no, heck no, sorry, We’re just humans.It’s going to be tough.Enjoy the good times, Enjoy joy.Try and like connect with joy, because lots of people don’t write their two worries about waiting for the other shoe to drop.50:35
So I’m like, enjoy joy, be joyful, but don’t well stop at some point, like something will happen, like and it’ll be difficult again.But it’s like, how do you handle the difficulty?And how do you how do you like, because yeah, right.So we work with the three cauldrons.So it’s like lower middle before you get to the upper.50:52
So you talked earlier about like how to be steady and your and your craft.So we’re like lower cauldron, middle cauldron.So lower is your internal landscape, what shit you’ve picked up as a child, like your nervous system, all these things, middle cauldron, boundaries, shadow, all these things, like all the things that you need to feel safe in your body to be effective with happens in the middle cauldron.51:12
And then once you’ve got those kinda, they don’t have to be perfect, but they need to be to be aware and like take responsibility for them.Then the upper cauldron, which is a weird, all the magic shit lies, just starts to turn on itself.Almost right.I’ve gone through about 15 different topics there, by the way, so you can just pack one.51:32
We started with like being up on a pedestal and they were on the three cauldrons and like the Ding, Ding, Ding.But I just feel like there’s this like, yeah.So the overall theme of that, you know, thing that I just said is like the sense of responsibility, but like for self and not thinking that we are any better just because we are.51:49
We’re like, it’s just really not good to think like that.There’s just something about it that’s like it isn’t, it’s just not, it’s not aligned, is it?No, and it comes back to the you know that please, please be guru, please spoon fed, you know, make make everything right.52:08
And I’m like, thank you.It’s not this world again.It’s like I deeply respect acquaintances, associates, friends and such who, you know, run schools and temples and churches and such.52:23
And I’m like, don’t, I don’t know where I need to be.I’m like, I’m a big dork.I don’t want to be someone’s parents.As you said, like it’s not.I have 4 cats and a partner that is enough now like that’s, that’s that’s where I exist.52:41
This is good.Yeah, we have this space.Sorry that I interrupt.No good.So we have this space called the Cauldron’s Way and we do something called I language where we like.We have when you come, you can’t give advice.You can only come and be there for yourself and your personal responsibility.52:58
And it’s really interesting because when the men arrive, like it’s open to all, it’s like all genders.So when, when the men arrive, they’re like, they want to speak as God and they, well, mostly not stay honestly.Then the men who do amaze them because they really get it.And the women who arrive want to save.53:16
So they’re like, let me save you, let me save you.And they get many of them are fine, but many get really annoyed to start with, myself included when I learned it for the first time, really annoying and just learning how to like not see you, you that’s and you that and jumping in to save has been life changing for some people.53:34
Just the idea of like, oh, wait, I’m only here for me.There’s only me.You can do all that.You can do other things outside of that space.But if you want to be in this space, you’d hear only for you.We’re quite militant about it, calling moderators and stuff, you know, they’re great.53:50
They’re all like amazing.But what it does is it creates this environment where everybody’s safe to express.Nobody’s going to get a fire hose of unsolicited advice that they didn’t ask for and usually don’t need.But people can say, I’ve had that experience.This is what I did.54:05
So then there’s like a much gentler way to like, for people to like choose the kind of perils of wisdom.And I think that in terms of like how we communicate and the way that we interact in the world, responsibility is like such a big deal.It’s not.It’s like just finding a way through the work that we do to like, support people to feel able to be more responsible for themselves and the way that they interact in the world, I guess.54:31
Yeah, I, I love that because it puts the I think city puts it into storytelling.It did the anecdote right, which I think our brains are wired.Our brains are wired for myth.Our brains are wired for learning from stories.And that’s how we also tap into empathy and understanding is we learn more in that state than we do.54:52
And they let me tell you what to do or I’m going to tell you what to do.And it’s like A and weed the liminal.There are lots of anecdotes because I’m going to tell you where I screwed up and you’re like, this is what works for me.This is what didn’t work for me.And I’ve had people be like, Oh, this is worth.55:07
They say it’s a biography.I’m like, well, text me if I’m ready to be an autobiography or a memoir.But like, this is this not, this is not a memoir.This is me storytelling to tell you what worked and what didn’t work for me so that you can make a choice about what’s right for you and to consider that.55:24
That’s so as a really, I love that idea because people just to be like, oh, it’s just telling stories.That’s a big thing.We began this whole thing with like the lad remembers everything and everyone.That’s the storytelling.It’s so important.Exactly so wait before we how long we’ve been going ages great like always forget to check the time it’s.55:49
Time.I mean, yeah, right.Yeah, I could talk all day, honestly.Yeah.So we are teaching at the Gathering of the Shamans together, which I’m delighted about, and I feel like this year we’ve got some new fork.I’ve done like 2 years.I think you’ve done more than that, right?You’ve done a few years now, The Gathering of the Witches.56:07
One of the first years, so this last year and this is my second year.Yeah, oh, me too much much.So I am teaching shadow and sovereignty, A Sawan journey with the Monica.And that’s what I’ll be doing this year because it’s right right around the Sawan season or Sawan time, depending of course on what date you use for Sawan, because it wouldn’t have been a very first of October.56:31
And I’m going to be teaching things like so and not being New Year originally, for example, not being like a new age thing.And then we’ll connect with the Morrigan and we’ll do all these different things.And then you’re going to be doing your schedule workshop, which I think is really, I think both of the things that we teach really align with each other quite, quite well.56:47
And as I scroll through, my sisters also teach.And so Wendy, do not plant spirit medicine.The elders whisper what she’s doing.The elders whisper in the green realm and it’s my sister.So it’s quite nice.So there’s like, it’s just like, it’s great.It’s so nice.And I’m so pleased to like be me and other teachers and like trying to like do what other people are teaching and why and what’s really important and how our values align and what what is important.57:13
Why are we doing what we why are we doing what we do?So is this the only one of these that you do, Laura, are you?Do you like to do more of these like group style things?For virtual events, I, I’ve kind of backed off from doing too many virtual events.57:29
So I think this is one of the few that I’ve done or I’m doing this year.It is a lot of time management.I love in person teaching the most the virtual At the same time, virtual events are so important because it brings such a wonderful like the lineup is so amazing.57:50
Not just us, but you know, like Judica and Matt and Nicholas and Lilith and like all, you know, like I’m sorry everybody, it was like so many, you know, almost a dozen different people who are experts in their field.And if you can’t travel to a festival event, a conference, etcetera, here is this fantastic event that you can turn on your computer and be there live, which I think is best, I’d say be there live when you can’t, but it’s also being recorded for.58:18
So you have 6 months to refer back to it.And so for the accessibility, especially for what you’re paying for so many different workshops that you’re going to be able to, you like can’t.If you go to your local wood shop, it’s going into for that many, it’s going to cost you a lot more because it’s one person at a time and that energy in there.58:36
And again, that’s like that’s not a good versus bad thing, but it is kind of, it’s a wonderful community experience as well because people are or chatting and there’s different discussions that are going on and networking.So you meet people from all around the world as well.So it’s very exciting to say.58:52
My favorite though, is why?I could, but I could be a person and be like, hey, let’s go and talk about tacos in the corner, whatever weird things that are happening.I think they’re doing are we like a chat thing this year?59:07
So I think they had one the first year that I was there and then then I think that they’re encouraging more of us to be in there.So I think like AMA and hey, that are just going to join.I think Wendy will join me.I don’t know if you are, but there’s like a kind of more chat Rooney style space as well.So it’s not just the classes.Like we can actually go into the rooms and answer questions after and just be around what’s after fair.59:27
You know, if I’m going to be online, I want to be connected to the people that I’m connected with.Like I don’t want to just be like the pedestal thing, right?I want to just come in and teach and then disappear into the ether.You know, I want to be there and like connect and talk and eat tacos in the corner, as you say, which is really nice.59:43
So I am really looking forward to it.I think I’m speaking to Judica later today, actually.So we’re doing it.We’re doing one of these later, which is really exciting.And I think Matt said he might come on, so we might see him as well.And doing this like we series for me is important because this is the only one of these I do.Just Gathering of the Witches is the only session group session I teach.1:00:02
And at the moment for various reasons, one of them is quite time consuming.And also the emails and all the things that you need to do.And I don’t want to, like, bombard the people on the list in my community with lots of these things, but this one’s great.I just want to keep doing that even though, I mean, technically I’m not a witch, but I think I kind of I’m just like quietly in the background.1:00:24
I think that if I had like really understood what it was in the beginning, I’m probably would ended up that route.But here.But actually what’s happened is that I find my way to witchcraft in another direction.Like I spoke to a Geo that Glasgow witch don’t know if you know, Geo and yeah, the other week on the podcast.1:00:41
And that was really interesting because it’s almost like there’s this real upsurge and uptick and people looking for down to earth, normal everyday teachers who are real safe, honest and actually helpful and don’t don’t talk in Word salad and don’t use words that nobody understands and say things that sound good but don’t mean anything.1:01:08
So I think there’s a real hunger for down to earth, real authentic teachers.And when I use the word authentic, I do crunch a little bit, But I mean, but it’s true, right?Like we, we’re looking for people who can actually be helpful.Like you’ve said, what’s the point in in being in the online space if we’re not actually helping people to get to where they’re trying to go, don’t you think?1:01:30
Yeah, absolutely.I think to me, yeah, authenticity is it’s got it’s got a little warm, but it still means like, you know, Wednesday, what does it mean to be authentic?It’s your shaman or magical practitioner.What works for you, what is working for you?1:01:46
And being real with that situation is important versus like, yo, you must mimic me, you know, like no, you’re going to be you.You need to be you in your practice and not me because for so many different reasons, right?It’s like.Yeah, you cannot be us.1:02:01
And I’d, you know, whenever I teach them, like I’m not interested in trying a bunch of clones, like, what’s the point?Like we don’t need more than me, one of me.It’s quite enough much.This has been so nice.I’ve really enjoyed chatting.I could definitely do this again if you’re up for coming back.1:02:18
But absolutely, yeah.Yeah.Thank you so much for joining me, Laura.It’s been like a lovely chat.Is there anything that you would like to share?Like where can people find you?What you know, what’s your Instagram and your website and what not?Let people know what they can where they can find you.1:02:35
Yeah, so I have my my website, which is lauratempestzachroff.com.That’s kind of the the hub for all things on Instagram.I am alchemy dot arts, but alchemy is spelled weird because I’m a dork.It’s owl, like the bird OWLKEYME dot arts.1:02:51
And that’s where you’ll find not just the witchy stuff I’m doing, but you’ll see pictures of my cats and my garden and other things.Because I am not, I am not a curious individual.I’d like, well, I guess I know a curate.This is my experience.It’s not filtered just for the witchy community.1:03:08
So you’re going to see art and cats and plants.As well.I love that.And I’ll also put all these links in the show notes folks as well.Whatever you’re listening, you’ll be able to find Laura’s links.You’ll find us as well.If you listen to this before the end of October 2025.1:03:25
Then you’ll catch us at the Gathering of the Witches this year.The links for that will also be in the show notes.Yeah.Laura, like going, I mean, might not be able to buy all our books.But back on the old saying to me and Laura.Yeah, Exactly.Start somewhere.It’s great.Thanks, Laura.That’s been a really real delight.1:03:41
And hopefully we can do it again.Thank you so much.I’ll see you.I’ll see you soon.I’ll see you soon, see in a few weeks.Yep.